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DO not depending on avijja and sankhara? - Page 11 - Dhamma Wheel

DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 10, 2011 11:06 am


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 10, 2011 11:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby legolas » Tue May 10, 2011 12:13 pm

This thread has veered off topic and in the spirit of that veering, I would just like to put my 2 cents in.
Retro is finding conflict because he is questioning. One thing I have found is that when you question certain "beliefs", people who hold those beliefs react from a position of being threatened. I am not saying that all my beliefs are right or all Retros beliefs are right and everything else is wrong, it is just that there has to be a set criteria for discerning what is right and wrong and even then each individual will have their own position. It is hoped through PRACTICE according to the suttas that more people will be on the same page than not. The following is my own personal view on what criteria I should follow to discern what is right :-

An ability to hear/read all the available suttas (translated wonderfully by many people)
An ability to reach some modicum of PERSONAL understanding of the suttas
An ability to regard all commentaries and teachers as neither good or bad - till one makes a comparison with the suttas
An ability to re-assess ones own understanding through PRACTICE and the words of another
An ability to regard lineage and tradition NOT being proof of what is being taught
An understanding that pali is not a sacred language and the suttas in general speak clearly
The mahayana make the claim that we are individual seekers and see this as a negative. It is actually a wonderful positive, we have to make the journey on our own and to do this we have to gain an understanding that does not rely on tradition. A prequisite for this journey is the words of another (The Buddha) or a teacher who after investigation is found to be in line with the suttas. Everything else is superfluous, bearing in mind that there are several thousand suttas and the Buddha was the greatest teacher ever, it is somewhat surprising that there was need for so many auxillary teachings. Please note, I am not saying that we dont need living teachers to expound the teachings, it is just that these teachers should be using the suttas as the basis for their teachings.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 10, 2011 12:30 pm

Greetings Legolas,

Thank you for sharing these words... I am in concurrence with them, and I feel they accord with key instructions from the Buddha in the Kalama, Simpsapa and Maha-parinibbana Suttas.

After some of the recent responses I've received in this topic, it's always quite nice to know that my approach to the Dhamma isn't perceived by everyone to be as reprehensible, baffling or academic as it might be to some.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 1:37 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 1:42 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 1:46 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue May 10, 2011 2:08 pm

:popcorn:

Classically, it is said, we note the specific characteristic of any arisen dhamma, then little by little, with time, we come to realise the general characteristics, of all dhammas, by observing dhammas which are arising now. It makes sense, as we cannot be mindful of all that is near, far, gross, subtle etc. There would be no hope of getting rid of craving to some hitherto unseen dhamma otherwise. You could even go so far as to say, the one dhamma you are observing is the world, when the mind is singularly concentrated on it, in the here and now..

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby legolas » Tue May 10, 2011 2:21 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 3:38 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby piotr » Tue May 10, 2011 4:15 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue May 10, 2011 4:55 pm

Confuser indeed! ..slip :smile:
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 5:14 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 10, 2011 10:11 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 10, 2011 11:04 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby Sylvester » Wed May 11, 2011 4:08 am


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed May 11, 2011 5:30 am

Hi Sylvester,

I understood Gombrich to be saying that the vedic model covered the first four links, not just two.

As I said, one of the interesting things to me is that the vedic nama-rupa, as I quoted from Gombrich:
"individuation both by name (nama), using a linguistic category, and by appearance (rupa), perceptible to the senses"
is quite similar to modern interpretations such as those of Vens Nanavira and Nananada.

So, even if one dismisses the claim that these are add-ons and/or a parody, knowing about the vedic meanings throw some light on what the Buddha (and the modern venerables) are getting at.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby Sylvester » Wed May 11, 2011 7:54 am

Thanks, Mike. I've given away my copy of Gombrich, so my memory fails me. Does anyone know how I can purchase Jurewicz' paper? It does smell tantalising.

Both Ven Nanavira and Ven Nanananda (Sermon 10) resort to DN 15's presentation of adhivacanasamphasso and paṭighasamphasso to derive their functionalist perspective of Namarupa being naming and striking. It is a very useful perspective, even if DN 15 is the only place in the Canon that makes this connection for the Namarupa-Phassa nidana.

But if one looks carefully at the entire DN 15, perhaps the rest of the sutta may furnish a context for its discussion of adhivacanasamphasso and paṭighasamphasso. The latter part of the sutta discusses the stations of consciousness and Emancipations/Liberations. There is a standard pericope of the 1st Formless Attainment - Infinite Space, where perception of form, perceptions of diversity and perception of "patigha" are noted in the formula. Other than Namarupa's functionalist presentation for the Namarupa-Phassa nidana, there appears to be an almost trite, if not irrelevant, discussion of "diversity" and "singularity" in the Stations section, almost as if tacked on like an afterthought to the DO discussion.

I suspect that given the sutta's latter pre-occupation with the Jhanas and Formless Attainments, the functionalist definition of Namarupa may be a prelude to be read with the Stations to furnish some kind of "map" or legend for the various forms of samadhi. But does look like far too much ink to spend on presenting patigha, if it's only import was for "Infinite Space".

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 11, 2011 9:22 am


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed May 11, 2011 10:21 am

:popcorn:

Tilt, check this out


"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

— AN 9.36
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html

The point is we can't depend on one sutta when we are trying to make sense of the the whole dhamma, as you know. Even dry vipassana teachers go past the first jhana when they reach fruition (anantarika) samadhi, classically.

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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