Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:20 pm

oushi wrote:You seem to not see the difference between view of emptiness and "not knowing". I never said that water, thirst, or "I" does not exist, did I? What would be the point of jumping from one extreme to another? So, you accusation missed completely. People think that they can know things by naming them, and are looking for this knowledge in written or spoken words. By honestly admitting that you don't know anything, you do not fall into a trap, but you liberate yourself from desire to know something that is unknowable, desire that makes karma. Do you know who you are? Because I have no idea who I am. I have some "stickers" like name, look, history, but those are only empty labels. As I said before, there is nothing to know, and no one that knows.
You almost climbed out of the pit, but then you slipped back in again at the last second:

Nobody, nothing,
Somebody, something.
Therein Mara lurks in wait,
to cast us back in the cycle of birth, death and suffering.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:25 pm

You seem to find joy in judgement. Tell me please, what is "knowing"?
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:28 pm

(77) Someone gives us advice from the depths of his heart,
Which is for our own good, but is harsh to our ears,
And with anger we view him as if he’s our foe.
Yet when someone without any true feelings for us
Deceitfully tells us what we like to hear,
With no taste or discernment we’re kind in return.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
You know? :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:43 pm

You seem to be more lost the I thought. If you like Nagarjuna, find his final conclusion. The only place you can get stuck is in the middle of his teachings, and that's the place you are lost. Ask yourself a question, what do you know for sure, and if you are lucky enough, you will realize that there is no such a thing. Don't try to be my savior, simply be honest. ;)
What is there I need to know? I ask because you behave like you knew.

‘Who, then, are you?’ the Emperor asked. ‘I don't know,’ replied Bodhidharma.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:34 pm

I give you his starting premise instead of his final conclusion.
I. Those whose intellects have gone well beyond existence and nonexistence
and do not dwell (anywhere), perfectly meditate upon the
meaning of the conditioned which is profound and without a support.
Nagarjuna Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby muni » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:41 pm

It helps to apply teachings in own mind investigation. :thanks:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby viniketa » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:51 pm

:good: :good:

(both the above)

:thanks:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:52 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I give you his starting premise instead of his final conclusion.
I. Those whose intellects have gone well beyond existence and nonexistence
and do not dwell (anywhere), perfectly meditate upon the
meaning of the conditioned which is profound and without a support.
Nagarjuna Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness
:namaste:

When you say "I don't know", are you affirming existence or nonexistence? Or rather, you are well beyond those extremes?
When you say "I don't know", where do you dwell?
When you say "I don't know", what is your support?
When you say "I don't know", where is your intellect?

To know is to believe something is true, have intellectual support for it, and dwell in this view.


"If you understand anything, you don't understand. Only when you understand nothing is it true understanding. The sutra say "Not to let go of wisdom is stupidity""- Bodhidharma"
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:14 pm

oushi wrote:When you say "I don't know", are you affirming existence or nonexistence? Or rather, you are well beyond those extremes?
Affirming non-existence of knowledge.
When you say "I don't know", where do you dwell?
In ignorance.
When you say "I don't know", what is your support?
Samsaric existence.
When you say "I don't know", where is your intellect?
Your intellect is supporting the view that it does not know.
To know is to believe something is true, have intellectual support for it, and dwell in this view.
I can know that something is not true.
"If you understand anything, you don't understand. Only when you understand nothing is it true understanding. The sutra say "Not to let go of wisdom is stupidity""- Bodhidharma"
The ignorant also do not understand, does that make them wise or stupid? You have to understand (that nasty word again) that Bodhidharmas advice is a) to not fall into the trap of considering Buddhism an intellectual pursuit and b) that enlightenment has nothing to do with a "you", thus if "you" think that "you" are enlightened (ie have true understanding) then "you" have not truly understood anything.
:namaste:
PS Again, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, you are falling into nihilistic view due to a misunderstanding of the nature of the two truths. This is a common mistake, we all make it at some point in time (and some of us continue to make it :emb: ). I am not launching a personal attack on you, nor am I judging you. If you do not want to heed some friendly advice then...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The ignorant also do not understand, does that make them wise or stupid?

Ignorant is the one that desires to know, even if it is desire to know Buddha. Not knowing is most intimate.
"I am timeless awareness, so knowledge is vanity"

Go and seek knowledge, sometimes its the only way to stop.
"Sought-after truth is found by not seeking it."

I am not launching a personal attack on you, nor am I judging you.

No, of course not. You are simply defending. :roll:
Last edited by oushi on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:28 pm

oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The ignorant also do not understand, does that make them wise or stupid?

Ignorant is the one that desires to know, even if it is desire to know Buddha. Not knowing is most intimate.
"I am timeless awareness, so knowledge is vanity"

Go and seek knowledge, sometimes its the only way to stop.
"Sought-after truth is found by not seeking it."
Doesn't really answwer the question, but good luck to you none the less!
Vijja Sutta: Knowledge (excerpt)
translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe
© 2009–2012

Those who know not suffering,
Nor how suffering comes to be,
Nor yet how all such suffering
To a final end is brought,

They do not know the Path
Leading to its calming down,
Cannot find the heart's release
Cannot be by wisdom freed,
With no chance to make an end,
To birth and aging they're condemned.

Those who do know suffering,
And how suffering comes to be,
Know too how all such suffering
To a final end is brought,

They who know the Path indeed
Leading to its calming down,
They can find the heart's release,
They can be by wisdom freed.
They know how to make an end,
To birth and aging no more bound.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:38 pm

As exchanging quotes will bring nothing, I will ask once more, what is "knowing"?
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby muni » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:53 pm

There is knowing by studying, investigating and then, this teaching I love so much from the Vietnamese teacher Thich Nhat Hanh: “For things to reveal themselves to us, we need to be ready to abandon our views about them.

Guarding knowledge is not good way to understand. Understanding means to throw away your knowledge. You have to be able to transcend your knowledge the way people climb a ladder. If you are on the fifht step of a ladder and think that you are very high, there is no hope for you to climb to the sixth.

The technique is to release. The Buddhist way of understanding is always letting go of our views and knowledge in order to transcend. This is the most important teaching. That is why I use the image of water to talk about understanding. Knowledge is solid; it blocks the way of understanding.

Water can flow, can penetrate".

:namaste:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:29 pm

Knowing is not seeking, seeking is not knowing. When you know you stop seeking, when you stop seeking you know. But what if you seek something that cannot be found? Reach for something that cannot be grasped? Samsara.

An old master said: “Yajnadatta thought he had lost his head. When he ceased from his frantic looking for it, he had nothing further to seek.”
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:49 pm

For somebody who claims that not knowing is the path to enlightenment you certainly have quite a good knowledge of Zen theory and are more than willing to whip it out when it comes to proving that you know! :smile:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:18 pm

And why is that? I don't know. Not knowing doesn't stop water from flowing down the hill. Not knowing the role of oxygen doesn't prevent an infant from breathing. Not knowing doesn't stop me from typing. Should I be ashamed? Is this the reason why people are afraid of it so much? Not a surprise, as we were raised in the environment that punishes not knowing.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby muni » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:27 pm

oushi wrote:A

Not a surprise, as we were raised in the environment that punishes not knowing.


Ah! :namaste:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:03 pm

oushi wrote:And why is that? I don't know. Not knowing doesn't stop water from flowing down the hill. Not knowing the role of oxygen doesn't prevent an infant from breathing. Not knowing doesn't stop me from typing. Should I be ashamed? Is this the reason why people are afraid of it so much? Not a surprise, as we were raised in the environment that punishes not knowing.

In keeping with the Zen mood of this thread:
face palm.jpg
face palm.jpg (12.04 KiB) Viewed 509 times

It's Japanese for face palm! :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby muni » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:50 am

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality". Einstein

Intelligence is ego's sharpest weapon. ( a dharma teaching, forgot which)


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.

I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. (?!)

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (habitual tendencies?)

Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new".

Einstein.

About beliefs:

"Whether someone believes something or not, believer or non-believer, as long as you are a member of the human family, you need warm human feeling, warmhearted feeling".

When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot.

Human potential is the same for all. Your feeling, 'I am of no value,' is wrong. Absolutely wrong. You are deceiving yourself.

Last but not least: If one's life is simple, contentment has to come". Dalai Lama

:smile:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowledge create karma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:20 am

oushi wrote:Not knowing doesn't stop water from flowing down the hill.
Knowing and applying the Eightfold Noble Path stops people from tumbling into the lower realms.
Not knowing the role of oxygen doesn't prevent an infant from breathing.
Knowing one's mind can prevent one from generating negative karma.
Not knowing doesn't stop me from typing.
Knowing the alphabet allows what you type to make sense (sometimes :tongue: ).
Not a surprise, as we were raised in the environment that punishes not knowing.
Knowledge can liberate from ignorance.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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