How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:32 am

Try Alan Wallace too and compare. Here: http://www.alanwallace.org/
But it's better to leave that for another topic alright. It's a cool discussion, though and your questions are fair.

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Ikkyu
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Ikkyu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:21 am

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

(cutting through bullshit, and sometimes failing... that's ok, though)


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:58 am

Not Watts.
Wallace, so that you can compare Batchelor's take with his. Wallace has a lot of texts online, so you can get a good idea if you explore his site and its links. You can also try to read something by Matthieu Ricard. Take a look at this article for instance: http://www.matthieuricard.org/en/index. ... _the_mind/
But I also dig a few writings of Alan Watts.

OK, let us not hijack this topic now. ;)

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Steveyboy
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Steveyboy » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:46 pm

I am not so sure about discussing the topic of sexuality based on scriptural sources and I heard from some scholarly friends that the Buddha almost did not mention anything about homosexuality. Perhaps. it was taboo to talk about at that time or it was simply not an important subject matter. Anyway, I have read from somewhere that prominent Buddhist masters do consider homosexuality the same like money, power and other desires, not a good thing but it is something that we cannot live without for now. It is also not as important as more important delusion of selfishness and so forth.

shel
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby shel » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:31 pm


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Ikkyu
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:32 am

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

(cutting through bullshit, and sometimes failing... that's ok, though)


GarcherLancelot
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby GarcherLancelot » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:47 pm

Ok if you don't believe in rebirth after death,what do you think will happen?.. .

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Nilasarasvati
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:45 pm

Just so that I could have the 108th post in this highly controversial topic...

I will say, with great joy

"I don't have to explain! The straight ones did it for me! (And Yudron. Praise her virtues! Praise them!)"

Also, I just want to say for any queers reading this in days to come: it took me years of studying the history and scripture (which as you can see from this thread seems very conflicted) and hearing over and over again from affirming and compassionate Lamas and Sangha that I was not broken, disgusting, or unable to "fit" into the Dharma. It was really really hard for me to feel like I really belonged or could practice without a gigantic contradiction. My hang ups were all the garbage of my puritanical upbringing, however--the Dharma has no intrinsic sexual ethics that prizes or favors heterosexual sex over homosexual or vice versa.

Basically:
they'll both send you to hell.

And the comments of some people in this thread who cling to that as some kind of justification for heterosexism are really just garbage. Alexander Berzin has an amazing article written about this on his site:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... thics.html

" But there’s no mention here as to whether the woman in this case wants to have sex or not. So, from our point of view we would look at this and say, “Hey, what about these parents in Southeast Asia who are so poor and they give permission and sell their daughter into prostitution. Is that OK because the girl has permission from her parents?” It’s not specified in the texts whether it is dependent on whether the woman wants sex or not."

It gives you a whole lot more reasons to realize--we have to figure out our own practice of sexual ethics. It has to be consistent with the buddhadharma...it has to come from a lineage authority, but as laypeople, we can't haul the cultural baggage of Feudal India or Tibet or China around with us. I was mortified with the thought of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, and that's why I agonized about it for so long. But fortunately, for us, we have teachers who can help us clean the issue of "baggage" and yet maintain, as much as we can, the pure vows.

WORST case scenario, you can't take 1 out of 5 lay vows. That limitation is negligable next to the merit and benefit of keeping even just one of the precepts. Or even just the refuge vows. <3 <3 <3

I'm okay.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

invisiblediamond
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:04 pm

Interesting discussion. I personally don't mind libidinous and kinky sex involving whatever. I'm a libertine. But I do wonder about some stuff I've read. Doesn't the anus correspond (in tantric and dzogchen) to the animal or hell realm? I wonder if really loving the pleasure of that aperture might lead to a rebirth in the corresponding realm? But then, if someone were able realized at some level, can't one take that onto the path? Or if you really love receiving oral sex, might that have a quality of exploitation or at least strong attachment to the enhancement of pleasure, and might that not be negative? I feel obviously anyone can join dharma, and obviously one does so hoping for some help with the behaviors. I don't know.

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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:15 pm


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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:25 pm


invisiblediamond
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:28 pm


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Nilasarasvati
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 pm

Oh invisiblediamond, I'm not really sure. It's possible that consort-practices, at least for Ngakpa couples, could be the route to enlightenment. But it's not "sex" really. Tantra has a lot to say about sexual symbolism, yoga etc. but it's got as much to do with everyday sex acts as meditation has to do with sleeping. They look sort of similar, but they're not.

Ultimately if we're talking about Sutra level discourse about sex, it's all bad. A snare of Mara. If you think the Dalai Lama was being "unBuddhist" by saying that stuff about sex, you may not know much about the History. Buddhism in general is not a sex-positive, anything-goes love fest...don't mistake the doctrine of the Mahashunyata for permission to go do anything that feels good!

I recommend reading that article I posted by Alexander Berzin. It's a really great, exhaustive, undeniably Buddhist (yet he's a Westerner) and even-minded but traditional perspective on all this.

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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:01 am


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Nilasarasvati
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:13 am

Too late! I believe the four seals sold me on Buddhism a long time ago. However, don't mistake the religion for the path. Don't mistake the dogma for the dharma. There are both in Buddhism, and sometimes they are the same and sometimes they aren't. All the truths taught in the Sutras and Shastras are just carefully crafted delusions that, eventually, we have to throw away as garbage.

Unlike other religions, Buddhism's point is to hurl the crutches of duality away, not break everybody elses legs and then sell them your brand of crutches.

I'm at peace with my sexuality and I believe, through the correct aspiration and motivation, that anything (and eventually everything) I do (except the 3 nonvirtuous actions of mind) can be a source of merit and benefit beings. I don't, in short, think I'm going to hell for who I am or what I do.

If I end up in lower realms for anything, it will be my addictive habits that turn me into a Preta. :P
So I offer up my merits to the pretas and pray that all their craving will dissolve in me.

There's really no circumstance that can't be transformed into Bodhicitta.

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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:34 am


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rory
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby rory » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:21 am

Nilasaravasti;
I'm a lesbian and a buddhist belonging to a Nichiren sect. The buddha never discussed gay vs. straight sexuality; he talked about attachment. The Lotus Sutra promises that everyone will become a buddha; so just ignore the other stuff,its cultural, whether Indian or confucian and you realize that all the straights love to discuss it as it doesn't affect them! My sensei says the same thing about the Buddha never discussing it, which I know is correct.

It's frankly a non-issue.
gassho
rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

greentara
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby greentara » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:31 am

" However, I think it is only honest to point out that beyond that the Buddha thought of sexual desire as being a major, perhaps even the major, hindrance to spiritual evolution. As you so colorfully put it “wanking, dogging, anal, oral, threesums (sic), orgies, BDSM, and being a Furry, and Cross Dressing, aren’t going to get you a one way trip to Hell”. True, but they are very likely get you a first class seat in sensual pre-occupation, obsessive fantasizing, frustrated longing, and perhaps even seeing others only as objects of personal gratification. Of course, the Buddha may have been wrong about this. But let’s not attribute to him things he did not teach"

Ven Dhammika

Simon E.
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:37 am

The Pali Canon teachings on sexuality ( whatever the truth of their authorship ) are not wrong..simply incomplete.
They are hinayana..geared to those then and now whose attachment could only be managed by abstinence. ..Which is an important thing to recognise and acknowledge for those whose reality it is.
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Nilasarasvati
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Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:44 pm

I know nothing about the Pali Canon, actually.
I was thinking of some Shastras written by mahayana people (including Shantideva) that say men who have a taste for boys will find themselves in an emphemeral hell of sorts where they are permanently bathed in saltwater. They are pickled for aeons basically...and incredibly thirsty.

I don't take it "personally" because I know he said pretty much the exact same things about heterosexual coupling that included anything outside of good old Catholic style, Vagina/Penis missionary position solely for the purpose of procreative sex.

And of course he would. He was a monk speaking to monks writing for monks. If some laypeople got mixed in, he was trying to convince them why they needed to support a University as sprawling and well-funded as Nalanda that was mostly comprised of monks.


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