Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby muni » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:24 am

:soapbox:

Such a joy not to use religion or buddhism in my talk.
Such a joy to use no other names neither.
Such a joy to not hang labels on ideas.
Such a joy to not form ideas by projections.
Such a joy to leave projections unmodified.
Such a joy the projector is on holiday.
Such a joy the holiday is all there is.


Thank you for the info about the book as well. :namaste:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby lobster » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 am

thanks to Astus :smile:

most of us speaking for myself, have been bought by
the world, the powers that be and the thought chains
that command our being.

It comes as quite a shock that the Free exists,
it also surprisingly has a price, we have to give
something.
We have to give up the idea that we can buy
anything but trinkets and empty shadows . . .

Sell your guru now
buy a cushion
hire your own ass
and bye bye . . .

:popcorn:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby muni » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:06 am

A teaching said something like this: It is really possible to "interhelp" ( please add in dictionary) each other and see clear how we appaer and how we are, but then of course the game is over, can be boring.

Anyway, if you do not agree, I'll shoot!
Thanks to all, beloved ones, not my mind but not other neither. :anjali:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Steveyboy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:55 pm

username wrote:
Steveyboy wrote:
username wrote:Hi Steveyboy,

Thank you for your kind post. Rinpoche gave a Vajrapani statue to Tsem Tulku to present to HHDL. It was a mere presentation of the young tulku to HHDL. That photo is what I said myself. Not my question to you. If you look at the time stamp on the video it says (19)95. From what I remember HHDL has said Tsem Tulku has to make a certain precise announcement before the glorious Dalai Lama will accept a personal private one on one meeting with Tsem Tulku. To my knowledge Tsem Tulku has made a general announcement but not what HHDL exactly wants Tsem Tulku to say. Tsem Tulku so far has refused to make that very specific announcement and has refused the HHDL.

I think it is time Tsem Tulku made that precise announcement HHDL has kindly waited so long for and went to Dharamsala to pay his respects to HHDL. If he is waiting for HHDL to die, then I have to say things will only get much more difficult not easier and beyond salvage. Then he will always regret it. I will be grateful if you can ask Tsem Tulku if he has any plans to do the right thing and arrange a personal meeting with the historic HHDL the 14th any time soon? I am sure this question of mine will be brought to his attention as he is on the web often. In case of no answer I assume his reply is still negative in refusing HHDL in which case it will be the greatest mistake of his life. Also in case you misunderstand my questions to him, not you, I will state it again, in an expanded form into two:

Q1: When was the last time Tsem Tulku had a personal private one on one meeting with HHDL if ever?

Q2: When is his next scheduled private meeting with HHDL for?

I am sure HHDL will quickly make time to see him privately in Dharamsala if Tsem Tulku satisfies the basic condition. As things stand, this is not acceptable anymore despite the kindness of HHDL.

Best wishes to you and Tsem Tulku and thank you again for your kindness in passing on my questions to him. I await Tsem Tulku's response.


You are welcome but I don't really know what you are talking about because you sound cryptic about some message sent between the Dalai Lama and Tsem Tulku. But I am sorry that I am not aware of the personal exchanges between Tsem Tulku and the Dalai Lama as I am not that close to Tsem Tulku. Even if I were, your questions are a little intrusive on Tsem Rinpoche's personal affairs, don't you think? I wouldn't dare ask Tsem Rinpoche or any Lama's schedule of when he is going to see the Dalai Lama or anyone else. I think that is a little too much to ask and its really none of our business. What are you trying to proof with all these questions?


The ultimate arbiter is the head lama, in this case HHDL. If you do not find it odd that a major Gelug Tulku, middle age by now, has never had a personal meeting with HHDL nor has no plans to despite HHDL asking him to, then carry on as you were. But I assure this is not normal, like a cardinal refusing the authority of a pope publicly. Very obvious to everyone else, including Tsem Tulku I assure you who knows what his actions or lack of mean. Best wishes and good luck to you and Tsem Tulku on the sacred path of Buddhism.


Well, there's nothing odd about it, really. If the Dalai Lama found anything wrong, the monastery would expel Tsem Rinpoche and the all his students and the Internet would know about it fairly quickly. Part of the encumbrance that prevents Tsem Rinpoche to travel is mainly due to his health. He has been having some health problems that was quite bad last year. Therefore, travel to the monastery and to meet the Dalai Lama would have been difficult. Also, I heard recently that Tsem Rinpoche was ordered by his Lamas many years ago to reside in Malaysia and to start his organisation there because many Malaysians have given much donations to the monastery for many years now. Therefore, Tsem Rinpoche resides in Malaysia and does much work to grow his organisation Kechara as well as maintain a blog that is one of the highest ranking of any Lama.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby username » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:00 pm

I pray to Guru Rinpoche, the great refuge savior and healer, that Tsem Tulku gets better.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:38 pm

I am unsure about Vajra Secrets and some other Kechara projects (and that a certain Dharmapala's pendants from Singapore are very very similar to those sold of Setrap over the border in Malaysia by Vajra Secrets.) Just how 'for sale' Tsem himself may be I'm not sure, but the Neon Lama has entertained and educated many to good effect, I believe.

However, for the purposes of this forum, to knock further off-topic debate on the head, could I remind members that Tsem Tulku replied in person about his practice to the staff here at Dharma Wheel, to their satisfaction. This is why discussion of him and his practices is still permitted:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3850
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Tara » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:38 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:.. could I remind members that Tsem Tulku replied in person about his practice to the staff here at Dharma Wheel, to their satisfaction. This is why discussion of him and his practices is still permitted:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3850


Apologies to everyone. After looking into this matter I noticed the wording in Ngawang Drolma's post in the link above which indicates Tsem Tulku himself was contacted however this is not the case.

To clarify Tsem Tulku was not contacted directly by the team nor did the team receive a reply from Tsem Tulku. A team member wrote to one of his representatives who kindly responded. The correspondence in plwk's post in the link above is (or was, not sure if it is still there) on Tsem Tulku's blog and the person "Martin" is not now nor has he ever been part of the team here at Dharma Wheel. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Regards,
Tara

**********************************************************
Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

**********************************************************
from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Thanks Tara for clearing that up. But that person was an empowered representative of TR?

I can see why some might have doubts, there are some strange things now that I think about it (during his several trips to Ganden while holding his position as resident teacher in Malaysia he never made the trip north to Dharamsala to attend the teachings of HHDL, or was not at Ganden at any period when HHDL was teaching there-occasions that happen every two years). But we cannot pillory what might be an innocent man and very beneficial teacher because of vague averements.

There could be very valid explanations for this and we could be judging TR unfairly without all the information- bad karma for all of us. So IMO, until there is evidence of S>>>n affiliation, it is best to leave it be. I try to put myself in the shoes of his or her students.

If there is actual evidence of involvement, that of course is another matter. But we need someone with a first-hand account, which I'm not convinced Username delivered.

If one of his more informed students could post some information on Rinpoche's position regarding Shugden propagation, this would do a world of good. And we can all continue in peace without the vague averements.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:13 pm

muni wrote: ..."interhelp" ...


Love this!

:woohoo:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby plwk » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:43 am

Thanks Tara for clearing that up. But that person was an empowered representative of TR?
Is this 'empowered' enough for you?
If one of his more informed students could post some information on Rinpoche's position regarding Shugden propagation, this would do a world of good. And we can all continue in peace without the vague averements.
Why do you need another when this is directly from him, short and to the point...
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3850
No, we should not practice this protector


Can the thread come :focus: ? It's about the book 'Gurus For Hire...' not about TTR nor his org nor that protector nor our off topic yadayada ....
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:52 am

Plwk,
In fact, I was trying to give the opportunity for TR's students to explain the situation to us. Likely not everyone goes to Rinpoche's sites on the web- and even then there is so much information on them it might not be easy to find the relevant pages. So by asking these questions and having these letters posted, everyone has the links where they can see them, as soon as the questions were raised.
People need the information to make up their minds. In fact, I was trying to give you a fair hearing so am a bit surprised about the tone of your post. I was trying to give you the opportunity to respond.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:54 am

On reflection, if the topic is Tsem Tulku's warning about the unwholesome practices of Gurus and disciples, then his own behaviour in terms of spiritual life and comemercial life are actually very much on topic.

However, I can't see anything new or edifying emerging from discussing it yet again.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby plwk » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:40 am

In fact, I was trying to give the opportunity for TR's students to explain the situation to us. Likely not everyone goes to Rinpoche's sites on the web- and even then there is so much information on them it might not be easy to find the relevant pages. So by asking these questions and having these letters posted, everyone has the links where they can see them, as soon as the questions were raised.
People need the information to make up their minds. In fact, I was trying to give you a fair hearing so am a bit surprised about the tone of your post. I was trying to give you the opportunity to respond.
First of all, apologies to the OP for further derailing the thread....
a. Perhaps it would be more fitting that if this issue is of some concern for yourself and 'others', a new thread might be more forthcoming by yourself rather than derailing another's thread with unrelated issues as what has happened for the last how many pages?

b. And if you want to take it further and see it for yourself, make an effort to contact Rinpoche himself and his Kechara liaisons and then come back here, start a fresh thread and post all of the findings you have gathered, for the 'benefit of all'. Just be ready for certain anticipated trolls as what I have found out...

c. Since, at one point of time in here, there was so much of negativity about this Rinpoche and his group, and I even recall my first thread I posted back some time when I featured Rinpoche's topic on debate was locked up with a PM that explained why, I decided to assist in getting to the bottom of it, since Kechara is in my country and I can help out in a small way to clear up something with this forum's Admin and Mods, I just did it. It's all voluntary.

d. As for myself, all I ever did was connecting this forum with the earlier said senior liaison of Kechara to expedite an email dialogue query, in fact, I don't know what are the exact transpired details between that ex Mod with the said liaison but since the former Admin has come forth with a positive announcement, I am assuming the dialogue must have went well. And to support her positive announcement, I found a relevant Q&A bit with Rinpoche on his blogsite (as appended earlier by Blue Garuda) and merely posted it for all to see. Almost immediately, as I recall, there was a negative remark by one member here on that thread, so it was removed from view and locked up. So now, what we have at hand are Rinpoche's direct response from that blogsite's Q&A and the positive announcement from the former Admin in that locked thread.

My work is done. If anyone wants more, please do your own investigation, for whatever reasons. I will not respond anymore on this matter. It's closed as far as I am concerned....

:focus:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:47 am

Again, apologies if I offended. In fact the thread was derailed ages ago into a Dzogchen topic, a derail in which I played no part. This is why I suggested placing book review threads in the book review section of the forum. The best way to get the thread back on track would be to post another passage from the book and have people discuss it. Otherwise there is not fuel enough for a meaningful discussion of the topic.
I though it would be in the interest of TR's students to respond immediately to the questions raised in this thread so there were no misunderstandings. I honestly though I was helping, and it is not I who raised the issues.

Anyway, obviously this like many other issues on the board is a hot potato so I will also try to steer clear. Tsem Rinpoche's delivery in the book is full on and I think he like many other lamas in the West who choose to teach through Western culture, deliberately makes provocative reactions. As he is also (in my opinion from what little I have read and know about him) a very intelligent man, he will know that making such provocative statements will put some people off who will criticize him. I honestly do not think that this bothers Rinpoche. Indeed, I feel that going against the grain is his modus operandi (way of doing things)
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:41 am

plwk wrote:Can the thread come :focus: ? It's about the book 'Gurus For Hire...' not about TTR nor his org nor that protector nor our off topic yadayada ....


Well, the thread started with a quotation by Tsem Tulku bashing students who dare critizise teachers. No wonder that it soon went into the direction that people started discussing certain topics where they find criticism of institutions, teachers or even religion in general justified. Even though the discussion was quite unstructured, imho most of the posts are not nearly as off-topic as it maybe appears to you.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Sheila » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:Well, the thread started with a quotation by Tsem Tulku bashing students who dare critizise teachers. No wonder that it soon went into the direction that people started discussing certain topics where they find criticism of institutions, teachers or even religion in general justified. Even though the discussion was quite unstructured, imho most of the posts are not nearly as off-topic as it maybe appears to you.


I didn't get a "don't dare criticize" feel from the Tsem Tulku quote at all, more of a "remove the log from your own eye before pointing out a speck in your brother's." I actually found his frank tirade hilarious and tragically spot-on. I've never heard any other Tibetan teacher put it into words, though. Most seem quite unruffled despite all the hyperactive Western frenzy, and I sometimes wonder how on earth they put up with us.

When I took refuge, I was so nervous I wiped out on a meditation cushion, at approximately the same moment as another girl was engaging in a spectacular, slow-motion super-prostration she had apparently invented for this solemn occasion. I recovered my composure and snuck a peak at Geshela, who was looking at us with a very kind face, and an ever-so-slightly raised eyebrow. I remember wondering what it would be like to be on his side of things ;)

I wonder if Indian teachers, coming into Tibet long ago, went through this kind of colorful culture clash--they must have, I'd think. I'd love to be a fly on the wall back then and hear some of the actual conversations on both sides.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby pemachophel » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:51 pm

Sheila,

You were (a fly on the wall, I mean). :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Sheila » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:42 pm

pemachophel wrote:Sheila,

You were (a fly on the wall, I mean). :namaste:


Too true!! It's all coming back to me now...
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:20 pm

Indeed I think that Tibetan teachers who stay in the West need a special kind of commitment and patience. Our cultures are so very, very different.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby shel » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...As you can see, here I am defining it as a means and a stage, rather than sustenance itself.

I have yet to come across somebody that has done away completely with this need. I am not sure if it is possible, within the limits of human experience/existence, to do away with this need. But then, it is not religion which is the problem, is it? It is any system that is constructed to capitalise upon this need.


Oddly, the need to "consciously evolve" beyond this need is just another expression of the need. In my experience religious people don't care to regard their religion as sustenance but rather see it as a "means" or a "stage."
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