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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:06 pm 
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I am new here, :namaste:

I just read Muni`s introduction topic `Dzogchen.` and I wonder:

Is there a clear and quite simple way to explain the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?

:thanks:

M.L.


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Merely Labeled wrote:
I am new here, :namaste:

I just read Muni`s introduction topic `Dzogchen.` and I wonder:

Is there a clear and quite simple way to explain the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?

:thanks:

M.L.


Mahamudra: along mind, absorption in space, empty ocean. Dzogchen is rigpa, wisdom looking to in clarity, perfection. (no looking by eyes running into a view)

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Lopon Tenzin Namdak says ...

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
Lopon Tenzin Namdak says ...

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Sönam

Yes sure. There you say so! http://books.google.be/books?id=4HqLxJR ... en&f=false

Labels will not harm, can only in wordly explanations confuse.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... gchen.html

The given introductions of both must be respected. No higher respect than awareness.

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Merely Labeled wrote:
I am new here, :namaste:

I just read Muni`s introduction topic `Dzogchen.` and I wonder:

Is there a clear and quite simple way to explain the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?

:thanks:

M.L.


It very much depends on what Mahamudra you are talking about. According to the Kagyu's there are sutra Mahamudra, tantra Mahamudra and essence Mahamudra. According to most masters essence Mahamudra corresponds very well withe the Dzogchen Semde.

If you want to get a good perspective the Tsele Natsok Rangdrols text "Heart of the matter" clearly shows the main points.

So the difference mainly depend on the teachers perspective, if it is wide or narrow.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
Lopon Tenzin Namdak says ...

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Sönam


This differences between emptiness and emptiness is only true within the Bon school itself. Also, Mahmudra defined as inseparable bliss and emptiness is only true according to tantra Mahamudra (at least in the Kagyu tradition).

The heart of the matter is if the 9 Yanas lead to enlightenment or not.

/magnus

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- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:57 am 
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Lopon Tenzin Namdak also says that as Semde is the aspect of Dzogchen that most stresses emptiness it is similar to Mahamudra.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:10 am 
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Thank you, everybody,

I will read Tsele Natsok Rangdrols text "Heart of the matter", this books seems a great source.

They call Dzogchen the pinnacle of all yanas and this makes me feel like Mahamudra was a step below it. So what is missing in Mahamudra to make it complete, I wonder.

:reading:

M.L.


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:23 am 
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Semde stresses mind/awareness and Longde stresses emptiness. Dzogchen is the pinnacle in Nyingma and Bön, but not in Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug. Also Mahamudra has different sets of teachings and interpretations, so there's more to keep in mind when comparing them.

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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:03 am 
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Merely Labeled wrote:
Thank you, everybody,

I will read Tsele Natsok Rangdrols text "Heart of the matter", this books seems a great source.

They call Dzogchen the pinnacle of all yanas and this makes me feel like Mahamudra was a step below it. So what is missing in Mahamudra to make it complete, I wonder.

:reading:

M.L.


Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's point of view is that the key-points in Madyamikha, Mahamudra and Dzogchen all point directly to the natural state. So you will benefit by receiving teachings in all these traditions. This is the style of the yogis. However, the most important thing if you want to gain stability in the natural state in this life is to find a qualified teacher. Without that there is no hope since the approach is beyond anything you can read or grasp with your mind.
Anyway, there are some instructions that exist only in the Dzogchen tradition like Tögal. Some teachers, like Karma Chagme, teach a unified approach of Mahamudra and Dzogchen where the Mahamudra instructions are to gain a gradual confidence in the natural state because that is easier for most, the Dzogchen approach is more sudden and so more difficult for most persons. Then add the Dzogchen instructions of Tögal once you attained some stability. There exist several commentaries on the various text by Karma Chagme called "The union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen" by Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche, Thrangu Rinpoche, Gyatrul Rinpoche and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche . This style of teaching is common both in the Kagyu tradition and the Palyul Nyingma.


/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:04 am 
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Thank you, Astus, for your answer.
It`s good to see that there are Buddhist teachings in Hungary nowadays ( I spent some time in European eastern countries during the communist regime :roll: ).

`heart` wrote:
``However, the most important thing if you want to gain stability in the natural state in this life is to find a qualified teacher. Without that there is no hope since the approach is beyond anything you can read or grasp with your mind. ``

I think so too.
Am trying my best to get Mahamudra teachings :bow:

M.L.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:10 am 
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:namaste: Good luck in your journey, Merely Labeled. Rejoice.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Tashi delek everybody, :)

Guess that one of the main differences would be that Mahamudra is rooted on Tantra
and
Dzogchen is not based on Tantra.

Tantra is about a maximum of 16 lives
Dzogchen is obtainable in 1 live and the real shortcut

Dzogchen has Kuntu Zangpo (Samantabadhra) as the Adi Buddha
Mahamudra has Dorje Chang (Vajra Dhara) as the Adi Buddha.

Further is Dzogchen proved by the accomplishing of the rainbow body


Best wishes with your practice

Regards
Kalden Yungdrung

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:53 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek everybody, :)

Guess that one of the main differences would be that Mahamudra is rooted on Tantra
and
Dzogchen is not based on Tantra.

Tantra is about a maximum of 16 lives
Dzogchen is obtainable in 1 live and the real shortcut

Dzogchen has Kuntu Zangpo (Samantabadhra) as the Adi Buddha
Mahamudra has Dorje Chang (Vajra Dhara) as the Adi Buddha.

Further is Dzogchen proved by the accomplishing of the rainbow body


Best wishes with your practice

Regards
Kalden Yungdrung


Ganges Mahamoudra is not based on Tantra, it is the way as well as the fruit, and the ultimate appears simultanely with the relative.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:10 am 
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Quote:
Sönam wrote
Ganges Mahamoudra is not based on Tantra, it is the way as well as the fruit, and the ultimate appears simultanely with the relative.

Sönam


Tashi delek Sönam, :)

Thanks for your reply.

Never heard untill now, in my 26 years Tibetan traditions experience, something about the so called Ganges Mahamudra. :o

May be could You elucidate this Ganga Mahamudra with its linege masters etc.


Best wishes to your praxis

Kalden Yungdrung

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:24 pm 
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It's also called essence mahamudra, and lineage starts at Tilopa. It is called Ganges Mahamudra because it's based on instructions Tilopa gave to Naropa on the bank of river Ganges ... http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Life_of_Tilopa_p/11450.htm

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Both terms, Dzokchen and Mahamudra, are quite "loaded."

Both "Great Perfection" and "Great Seal" are, ultimately, descriptions of the Ultimate State of Realization. As such, they're equivalent, though the focus is a bit different. We could say this is in relation to the "Fruit."

From the point of view of the "Path," these two traditions are different, though there are similarities. A skillful teacher can weave them together, without losing the meaning, and without confusing the student in his or her "practice." But there are methods specific to Dzokchen which are not found in Mahamudra, it's true.

From the point of view of the "Ground," or foundation, descriptions and explanations differ a bit. Mahamudra focuses quite a bit on the coexistent "Emptiness/Appearance," or "Emptiness/Bliss." "Dzokchen" focuses on "awareness" and how it differs from "mind," as well as on purity and spontanaity.

As for the Ganges Mahamudra of Tilopa, it is one of the most famous Dohas of the Mahamudra Siddha tradition.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:43 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek everybody, :)

Guess that one of the main differences would be that Mahamudra is rooted on Tantra
and
Dzogchen is not based on Tantra.

T

This is completely untrue.
Dzogchen is most definitely based on tantra.
The Dzogchen scriptural bases are "tantras" afterall.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Quote:
Nangwa wrote
This is completely untrue.
Dzogchen is most definitely based on tantra.
The Dzogchen scriptural bases are "tantras" afterall.




Hello Nangwa :)

Thanks for your reply.

Dzogchen in Kagnying from Nepal, the only Kagyu-Nyingma monastery in the world i guess proclaims that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same.

Can assure you dear Nangwa that in Bon this is not the case that Dzogchen is/must be special based on Tantra.
But we also know the gradual way in Bon and that would be: Sutra - Tantra - Dzogchen.
This is the method for the lower and middle level of understanding persons, but there are also others with great karma from previous lives etc. who can follow Dzogchen very easy without a stepping stone or gradual way method.Dzogchen was a long time therefore more secret then the Tantra education / techings. We know in Dzogchen for a long time the Master - student etc. relation because the importance of secrecy. The reason is that even the Tantrists cannot follow easy Dzogchen and so is Dzogchen self protected by the Master who has only 1 student. They changed recently this relationship because out of fear that Dzogchen could disappear.

So there are realy persons who do or practice only Dzogchen without that this is based on Tantra, like myself.
Dzogchen is difficult to understand for non-Dzogchen practitioners, because Dzogchen is a non-dual awareness which does not need a Yidam , outer objects, bliss, Yab-yum and Kama Sutra to make progress.

The only thing we always are trying, is to be in our Natural State and to be (self)aware of this state.Further do we the light yogas and the dark retreat yoga to make progress regarding resting in our Natural State, which shows to us the two ways of experiencing the inner and outer ways of seeing or to be aware of our Natural State or not.

So we/i have non-Tantric things in our/my Dzogchen practice.
Do i practice Tantra?
Yes i do, but then i do not practice Dzogchen :D


Best wishes with your praxis
Kalden Yungdrung

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
It's also called essence mahamudra, and lineage starts at Tilopa. It is called Ganges Mahamudra because it's based on instructions Tilopa gave to Naropa on the bank of river Ganges ... http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Life_of_Tilopa_p/11450.htm

Sönam



Hello Sonam, :)

Thanks for the reply.
Yes i know that teaching from Tilo to Naro done in India but that this will be Ganga Mahamudra was for me new. Well then we have also Himalaya Mahamudra like from Nepal (Ka-nying) may be?
http://www.shedrub.org/page.php?page=lineage

Best wishes for your praxis
Kalden Yungdrung

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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