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DO not depending on avijja and sankhara? - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 01, 2011 8:38 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 8:53 am

Greetings Tilt,

Sure, as I said to TMingyur, there's many possible ways to approach it.

What I will say though is that if approached phenomenologically, you can see each element at play in this very lifetime, and therefore actively use the teaching on dependent origination, across all nidanas, to understand how suffering comes to be and how true "sabbe sankhara dukkha" really is. If aspects are consigned to other lives, it is as if accepting that unless one can see past lives or foresee future lives, that these teachings and the causality they detail, cannot be relevant for us, here and now... and can be only, by necessity, articles of faith.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 01, 2011 9:22 am


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 01, 2011 9:31 am


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 9:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 9:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby piotr » Sun May 01, 2011 9:54 am

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 9:56 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby piotr » Sun May 01, 2011 10:01 am

Hi Retrofuturist,

I think that it refers to nirodha, which can be attained in this life (sandiṭṭhiko), one doesn't have to wait for death to come to attain it (akāliko), and so on.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 01, 2011 10:02 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Sun May 01, 2011 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 10:05 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 10:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby piotr » Sun May 01, 2011 11:00 am

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 11:04 am

Greetings Piotr,

Even still, it's hard to see how it fits to nirodha more than it does to the Dhamma (e.g. "fit for making use of")

Anyway, it only came in discussion because you objected (?) to me using it with reference to the Dhamma. Seeing MN 38 and those comments from Dmytro, I trust you no longer object?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby gavesako » Sun May 01, 2011 7:22 pm

These kids in Thailand (7 year olds) seem to have no problem reciting and understanding Dependent Origination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X3H6AND ... re=related
(skip to minute 1:12)

:roll:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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piotr
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby piotr » Sun May 01, 2011 7:51 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 01, 2011 8:26 pm


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun May 01, 2011 10:14 pm

Hi Retro,

If the DO was entirely phenomenological, the redundancies in it would not make sense. It would not be necessary to talk of bhava or even suffering as all that would be covered under the more present moment elements like phassa and vedana.

It is important to remember, that this is something the bodhisattva thought through, backwards. That us to say, starting with suffering, he simply wanted to find the cause of it. He kept going until no earlier cause could be discerned. So if I were to have a go..

Why am I suffering
Because I was born

Why was I born? Because there was clinging and so on..

I guess he started from very broad brush strokes and really refined it. He could see that by the removal of avijja there could be removal of those elements of consciousness, contact vedana etc. Pure wisdom dissolving 'reality'- marvellous! But for the old avijja in the form of the mind and body to resolve, there had to the physical death. I guess the phenomenology provides 'proof' (as close as we can get) that literal rebirth can be stopped, as non-arising can be experienced, even now.. and how much more, at death; and yes, the stream entrant is aware and has experiences at some level paticcasamuppada and p-nirodha. The stream entrant has not 'removed' avijja, but is mere suppression (tadanga pahana). The arahath removes curretly active avijja from his mind, removes the fetters to conditioned phenomena, is able to partake in the deathless but like the Buddha himself, was not able to stop aging disease and death which are universal truths, applicable to everyone. You could argue that what is removed is the cause for rebirth and suffering in the future. There is no way to fully verify it- short of the 'thought experiment' (if it is not too demeaning to call it that) of experiencing Nirodha... and no, faith (sadda) is not out of place in the dhamma- in fact it is essential to even start the journey to a goal which cannot be fully described. I see no other way to reconcile this. :shrug: .. and it is good enough for me- I have 'nothing' to loose and everything to gain :tongue:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 11:02 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 01, 2011 11:12 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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