Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:53 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is a problem with religion in general. It fosters this stupid us vs. them mentality and reinforces tribalism. This is among the many reasons why I eschew the label "Buddhist". I have no interest in religion, per se. Religion, such as it is, is pretty evil.


I have seen plenty of us vs. them mentality outside of religion, so much indeed that I don't think it has anything in particular to do with religion.


Sure, but the intensity seems proportionate here to the value attached, consciously or unconsciously (and thus also to the emotion invested, etc.). In other words, the us-vs-them mentality among boardgame geeks or stamp collectors is nowhere near as aggressive as it is among the people concerned with universal salvation. Or with the benefit of all sentient beings.

And the fact that such kind of mentality is pretty much common* in Buddhist sanghas hurts particularly horribly, clashing with the very basic principles of the Dharma.

* Can't say I have a long Dharma life history. But I've been here and there, and I've never come across a sangha free from the problem. And it was a cold cold shower each time, with a nasty and lasting aftertaste.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Konchog1 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:46 am

Yep,

Everyone was wonderful at the temple I now go to at first time I showed up.

I went to a Theravada temple with a Thai friend and everyone was cold as ice except for the monk.

Guess you just have to shop around.

Also, I'm from Southern California, so 1 in 5 people are "Buddhist". Thus, I never tell anyone I am. My flatmates only found out because of the statue in my room.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby tomamundsen » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:21 am

Konchog1 wrote:Also, I'm from Southern California, so 1 in 5 people are "Buddhist".

hahaha :smile:
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Matylda » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:40 am

Steveyboy wrote:Thank you. I have the book and here's one very interesting topic on Guru Bashing. I typed out the first three paragraphs of that chapter and it does look very interesting already:-

The Phenomenon of Guru Bashing

In the past, Dharma was not really taught to laypeople. It was always Sangha teaching the Sangha. Now there is a phenomenon in Dharma centres where Dharma is being taught to laypeople that just walk in to the centre looking for spiritual happiness and peace.

However, these people listen to all kinds of words and politics, and they start criticising and bashing other Gurus, monks and traditions. Nowadays, there are ordinary laypeople running around criticising other lineages. There are housewives, businessmen and salesgirls who join a Dharma centre, hear some rumours and run around on a rampage criticising high Gurus, reincarnated Gurus, Tulkus and Geshes. But they have not held their vows for even one day and they will not even consider taking ordination vows. They have zero compassion, their refuge vows are in tatters, they do not know what the cause and effect theory is, they have no knowledge or fear of karma and its effects.

These are laypeople that have been running around chasing money, fun, entertainment, position and titles their whole lives. They come into Dharma for one or two years and all of a sudden, they think they are higher than every Guru in Tibet!


:) I can only support what Tsem Tulku said in this quotation... In Europe I have seen myslef people who engaged in guru/teacher-disciple relation and not only failed, but spoke incredible amount of negative things about the teacher later on.. I started to laugh reading They come into Dharma for one or two years and all of a sudden, they think they are higher than every Guru it was exactly my impression too, but not only impression. It was based on fact, on what people said and did.

In Asia I never seen such situation, not that there is no critic at all, but there is no that sort of arrogance I could see in the West.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby lobster » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:13 am

If possible you should buy your Guru outright. :rolleye:
That way you own them and can keep them in a magic cupboard (I also keep a crack psychiatric team there for emergencies . . . ) :smile:

Of course that means you need Guru Rinpoche or some high ideal Master as your guru. You also have to listen to what they say even if it conflicts with your lesser interests. Also you have to maintain integrity.
I guess enlightenment in truth may be on sale but the special offer comes with its own price . . .

Here are some things Guru Rinpoche told me (or maybe I just imagined it) :soapbox:

1. We find the level of Truth appropriate to our needs and capacity
2. Don't confuse the finger with the moon (I think he has been hanging out with those Zen types again)
3. Trust yourself. One day you will be a Buddha. Today is a good day to continue that journey.
4. A cupboard may be small but it contains the whole world.

. . . OK back in the cupboard Guru Rinpoche . . .
Many thanks :twothumbsup:

OM AH HUNG VAJRA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby heart » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:20 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is a problem with religion in general. It fosters this stupid us vs. them mentality and reinforces tribalism. This is among the many reasons why I eschew the label "Buddhist". I have no interest in religion, per se. Religion, such as it is, is pretty evil.


I have seen plenty of us vs. them mentality outside of religion, so much indeed that I don't think it has anything in particular to do with religion.


Sure, but the intensity seems proportionate here to the value attached, consciously or unconsciously (and thus also to the emotion invested, etc.). In other words, the us-vs-them mentality among boardgame geeks or stamp collectors is nowhere near as aggressive as it is among the people concerned with universal salvation. Or with the benefit of all sentient beings.

And the fact that such kind of mentality is pretty much common* in Buddhist sanghas hurts particularly horribly, clashing with the very basic principles of the Dharma.

* Can't say I have a long Dharma life history. But I've been here and there, and I've never come across a sangha free from the problem. And it was a cold cold shower each time, with a nasty and lasting aftertaste.


So Buddhism is evil sounds right to you because of what? I am sorry, I can't imagine what happened to you in these Sangha's that make you think the word "evil" is the correct description of your experience with them. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:44 am

I noticed onTsem Tulku's website that you can buy prayers for all manner of worldly situations. For example if you need to improve your chances of scoring high in an exam or if you are having legal problems and so on. Also you can buy treasure vases and all the rest of the paraphernalia that will make your life go well. Tsem Tulku is having a movie made about his life. Also you can read in cartoon format miracles attributed to him. So all of this worldly activity and no way to criticize when you don't get what you want?
Wisdom is sold as a commodity these days. Big dharma organisations need big dollars and Tsem Tulku's business model is one shared by a number of branded dharma organisations. You can buy what you like but you can't criticize when what you have bought into doesn't work for you? This kind of business is one that business people all over the world dream about.
I'm not a Buddhist anymore. Not if buying into dharma and then shutting up is what it means to be Buddhist.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby heart » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:55 am

Andrew108 wrote:I noticed onTsem Tulku's website that you can buy prayers for all manner of worldly situations. For example if you need to improve your chances of scoring high in an exam or if you are having legal problems and so on. Also you can buy treasure vases and all the rest of the paraphernalia that will make your life go well. Tsem Tulku is having a movie made about his life. Also you can read in cartoon format miracles attributed to him. So all of this worldly activity and no way to criticize when you don't get what you want?
Wisdom is sold as a commodity these days. Big dharma organisations need big dollars and Tsem Tulku's business model is one shared by a number of branded dharma organisations. You can buy what you like but you can't criticize when what you have bought into doesn't work for you? This kind of business is one that business people all over the world dream about.
I'm not a Buddhist anymore. Not if buying into dharma and then shutting up is what it means to be Buddhist.


Who is asking you to buy in to anything or to shut up about anything? What is it you want? A new forum on dharmawheel for anti-buddhist Dzogchen practioners? :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Steveyboy » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:27 am

Andrew108 wrote:I noticed onTsem Tulku's website that you can buy prayers for all manner of worldly situations. For example if you need to improve your chances of scoring high in an exam or if you are having legal problems and so on. Also you can buy treasure vases and all the rest of the paraphernalia that will make your life go well. Tsem Tulku is having a movie made about his life. Also you can read in cartoon format miracles attributed to him. So all of this worldly activity and no way to criticize when you don't get what you want?
Wisdom is sold as a commodity these days. Big dharma organisations need big dollars and Tsem Tulku's business model is one shared by a number of branded dharma organisations. You can buy what you like but you can't criticize when what you have bought into doesn't work for you? This kind of business is one that business people all over the world dream about.
I'm not a Buddhist anymore. Not if buying into dharma and then shutting up is what it means to be Buddhist.


I think I understand where you are coming from but you must understand that all organisations require funding to function in order to benefit people. However, I think you shouldn't call the work this organisation is doing as just a business. I have seen how the rituals and wealth vase are done in accordance to authentic rituals from the monastery and have their blessings and the money raised is channeled back to the monastery and monks as well as the running costs of the organisation. Almost everything being done within this organisation brings some kind of benefit to people.

I am very sure if you are unhappy with anything you have ordered or purchased, they will be more than happy to assist you or at the very least refund your money if you are not happy with anything. My point? I think you are looking at the organisation on a very superficial level. Many of the things provided by the organisation benefit people on so many levels but more importantly, we are using these avenues to spread the teachings. In fact, a majority of Tsem Tulku's teachings are available to be viewed on YouTube for free.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:31 am

Hi Heart,
Anti-Buddhist? Not at all. Quite the reverse. My bias favors teachers who don't have anything for sale. Who don't set up big organizations.. Who don't worry about criticism. Who don't try to condition their students. Who teach the dharma in a straight manner without fuss and brocade. Who don't care if they are sick or well. Who live out of a suitcase. Who don't seek fame. Who treat their students equally, whether the student is a Rinpoche or roadsweeper. Luckily I met such a teacher.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:39 am

Steveyboy wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:I noticed onTsem Tulku's website that you can buy prayers for all manner of worldly situations. For example if you need to improve your chances of scoring high in an exam or if you are having legal problems and so on. Also you can buy treasure vases and all the rest of the paraphernalia that will make your life go well. Tsem Tulku is having a movie made about his life. Also you can read in cartoon format miracles attributed to him. So all of this worldly activity and no way to criticize when you don't get what you want?
Wisdom is sold as a commodity these days. Big dharma organisations need big dollars and Tsem Tulku's business model is one shared by a number of branded dharma organisations. You can buy what you like but you can't criticize when what you have bought into doesn't work for you? This kind of business is one that business people all over the world dream about.
I'm not a Buddhist anymore. Not if buying into dharma and then shutting up is what it means to be Buddhist.


I think I understand where you are coming from but you must understand that all organisations require funding to function in order to benefit people. However, I think you shouldn't call the work this organisation is doing as just a business. I have seen how the rituals and wealth vase are done in accordance to authentic rituals from the monastery and have their blessings and the money raised is channeled back to the monastery and monks as well as the running costs of the organisation. Almost everything being done within this organisation brings some kind of benefit to people.

I am very sure if you are unhappy with anything you have ordered or purchased, they will be more than happy to assist you or at the very least refund your money if you are not happy with anything. My point? I think you are looking at the organisation on a very superficial level. Many of the things provided by the organisation benefit people on so many levels but more importantly, we are using these avenues to spread the teachings. In fact, a majority of Tsem Tulku's teachings are available to be viewed on YouTube for free.

You don't need to spread the teachings. All your organisation needs to do is to be able to offer the teachings if someone asks. Dharma is very very simple. Why complicate it by trying to spread it?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:34 am

heart wrote:I am sorry, I can't imagine what happened to you in these Sangha's that make you think the word "evil" is the correct description of your experience with them. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?

/magnus


Hi Magnus,

I'm not the adressee of your post, but I, too, have had my share of negative experiences with people in Dharma Centers, because up until recently I have worked in a socalled "Dharma Center". I have never seen so much arrogance and aggression, furtiveness and malice as with the people who are running that center. The Wikipedia articles on narcissistic personality disorder and on malignant narcissism give a good description of what I'm talking about. Those people are getting through with this behaviour because they know Tibetan perfectly and to the outside they manage to uphold an image of being advanced practitioners. Whenever the financial proceeds of that center decrease because word gets around that what's going on behind the scenes is everything but Buddhist they invite some prominent Rinpoches who attract new members and new money. I stopped working in that center because I really couldn't support that anymore.

One result of my working in that center is that I now believe in Vajra Hells. :shrug:

When Machig Labdron was meditating in the hills, the abbot of the neighbouring monastery heard that a woman was so impertinent to leave the kitchen and purport to be meditating. With some of his monks he went to Machig's cave to lead her down to the village bound and with a rope around her neck. Fortunately Machig was already a realized practitioner and they gave up their plan when they saw her. Had they come some years earlier, before Machig was realized, they probably would have proceeded.

Buddhists can be evil. Especially when there's ranks and titles and money involved.

bye,

R'n'R
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby heart » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:56 am

It is a well known fact among older practitioners, such as myself, that dharma centers are like nest of vipers. But evil? Vipers just do what vipers do best.

/magnus
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby heart » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:10 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Heart,
Anti-Buddhist? Not at all. Quite the reverse. My bias favors teachers who don't have anything for sale. Who don't set up big organizations.. Who don't worry about criticism. Who don't try to condition their students. Who teach the dharma in a straight manner without fuss and brocade. Who don't care if they are sick or well. Who live out of a suitcase. Who don't seek fame. Who treat their students equally, whether the student is a Rinpoche or roadsweeper. Luckily I met such a teacher.


Yes, we are all very lucky ChNNR is in this world but I am pretty sure his dharma centers are more or less like all dharma centers. There will be fights about power and money. It seldom seems to have its source in the Guru but just appear all by itself when humans interact. There really don't need to be a center even just a few students are capable of creating a big mess. Read "Confessions of a Gypsy Yogini" to see how deep that rabbit hole can be.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:22 pm

heart wrote:It is a well known fact among older practitioners, such as myself, that dharma centers are like nest of vipers. But evil? Vipers just do what vipers do best.

/magnus


Sounds like we're rather debating over the meaning of the word "evil" then...?

Vipers don't have self-awareness, nor a free will, nor do they have the intellectual capacity to reflect on ethics and the Buddha Dharma. They just follow their instincts. I wouldn't call that evil, either. But people who abuse their power in dharma centers do have self-awareness and so on. I see a huge difference there.

According to my understanding of the word it is evil, for instance, when people deliberately work out strategies how to break other people's will in order to abuse them for their own profit.

Just my 2 cents....
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Stewart » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:18 pm

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:Hi Heart,
Anti-Buddhist? Not at all. Quite the reverse. My bias favors teachers who don't have anything for sale. Who don't set up big organizations.. Who don't worry about criticism. Who don't try to condition their students. Who teach the dharma in a straight manner without fuss and brocade. Who don't care if they are sick or well. Who live out of a suitcase. Who don't seek fame. Who treat their students equally, whether the student is a Rinpoche or roadsweeper. Luckily I met such a teacher.


Yes, we are all very lucky ChNNR is in this world but I am pretty sure his dharma centers are more or less like all dharma centers. There will be fights about power and money. It seldom seems to have its source in the Guru but just appear all byelf when humans interact. There really don't need to be a center even just a few students are capable of creating a big mess. Read "Confessions of a Gypsy Yogini" to see how deep that rabbit hole can be.

/magnus



I think Andrew is referring to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso here....to be fair Andrew, KTGR used to travel widely and raise money for his projects, two nunneries and a translator school. He also fully enjoyed the hospitality extended to him by the numerous centres he visited, he also accepted offerings towards his projects. He also has several books available for sale, so KTGR isn't so far removed from other teachers. No matter how you'd like to portray it.

For the record, I think KTGR is an amazing teacher, and I had the joy of attending to him on several occasions, but there are many like him in attitude. My own teacher has a large organization, but personally has very simple needs, in fact he has wandered off with no possessions leaving everything behind.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Astus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:09 pm

People apparently expect a lot from every other people. It is always "we the people" and those others, and we are correct, the others are obviously idiots and/or manifestations of Mara himself. It is of course the duty of every bodhisattva to work hard for the benefit of the others and make others enlightened beings. But, you are not really a bodhisattva as long as you believe that there are others to educate. Whatever fault you see it is your own vision, not theirs. If you think that this or that group of people are wrong, you can be sure it is a generalisation, a conceptual fabrication. Groups don't actually exist even on the mundane level, do they? Enlightening an imaginary being (i.e. a group) is an impossible task. No wonder it is a frustrating self-imposed mission to correct the other people, those poor stupid devils. History teaches us that community problems existed a millennium before just as they do today. Myths tell us what we should aspire for, the perfect harmony. As long as there is confusion about history and myths, facts and motivation, and we feel cheated when we see everyday people acting normal instead of like saints, being with living humans remains a source of pain. Eventually we don't believe in myths any more and become depressed about history.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:50 pm

heart wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Sure, but the intensity seems proportionate here to the value attached, consciously or unconsciously (and thus also to the emotion invested, etc.). In other words, the us-vs-them mentality among boardgame geeks or stamp collectors is nowhere near as aggressive as it is among the people concerned with universal salvation. Or with the benefit of all sentient beings.

And the fact that such kind of mentality is pretty much common* in Buddhist sanghas hurts particularly horribly, clashing with the very basic principles of the Dharma.

* Can't say I have a long Dharma life history. But I've been here and there, and I've never come across a sangha free from the problem. And it was a cold cold shower each time, with a nasty and lasting aftertaste.


So Buddhism is evil sounds right to you because of what? I am sorry, I can't imagine what happened to you in these Sangha's that make you think the word "evil" is the correct description of your experience with them. Perhaps you could elaborate a little?


Erm, I didn't say Buddhism is evil. That's Malcolm's word, and he didn't use it to characterise Buddhism per se but "religion, such as it is". And he didn't say 'all religion is evil'. What he actually said was much more nuanced:

Malcolm wrote:This is a problem with religion in general. It fosters this stupid us vs. them mentality and reinforces tribalism. This is among the many reasons why I eschew the label "Buddhist". I have no interest in religion, per se. Religion, such as it is, is pretty evil.


You may ask him what he meant. I understood him as suggesting that even a perfectly valid 'spirituality' (excuse the word), the moment it transforms to a religion with all its typical accoutrements, becomes deeply ambiguous, to say the least. Institutionalization corrupts. I don't think Malcolm's 'evil' is a metaphysical concept, btw.

I'm no Buddhism-hater, of course, and I could never say I've ever been a helpless victim of Buddhist sanghas. What I've come across included deep, and usually unacknowledged, arrogance; aggressive sectarian narrow-mindedness and 'born-again' kind of mentality; profound internal elitism (i.e., sanghas clearly divided into outer and inner hierarchically structured circles divided by what appeared to me when I first bumped into them as walls of ice); general willingness to show off to newcomers and general unwillingness to go out to them; complex, unofficial and subtle but stable power structures; a LOT of tensions and pettiness and spite (both towards the 'outside' and on the 'inside'); a wide assortment of the cultural prejudices typical of the time and the place; and, last but not least, a huge, riveting social game in which one is supposed to boast to one's fellow sangha members of one's 'Dharmic' achievement (which includes one's proximity to the teacher(s), exotic retreats, Dharma 'possessions' and skills, etc.).

Needless to say, not everybody in a sangha gets involved in those human, all too human behaviours - which certainly aren't Evil, but are just sorely vulgar and disappointing. And, yes, it could be much, much worse. Still, if I understood Malcolm correctly, I subsrcibe wholeheartedly to his sentiment.

I should also add that I've come across kindness and utter selflessness and generosity as well. I've learnt, too, the obvious thing that all Dharma environments, even those that initially alienate and mistreat you, ceaselessly change - and may, with time, outgrow and leave behind their ugliest features.
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Astus wrote:If you think that this or that group of people are wrong, you can be sure it is a generalisation, a conceptual fabrication.


Interesting. But shouldn't you also apply that to your own point of view? Your own conviction that the people you are believing to be wrong and therefore trying to educate with your post should then also be nothing but a conceptual fabrication which is produced by your own impure vision.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Gurus For Hire Enlightenment For Sale

Postby Astus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:02 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:Interesting. But shouldn't you also apply that to your own point of view? Your own conviction that the people you are believing to be wrong and therefore trying to educate with your post should then also be nothing but a conceptual fabrication which is produced by your own impure vision. :tongue:


Let me repeat, "we are correct". :tongue:

I discussed a mentality there, not people. And of course it's a fabrication, a verbal one. It is written, therefore it couldn't be anything else even if I wanted to.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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