How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Grigoris » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:07 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
underthetree
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby underthetree » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:57 am


purple rose
Founding Member
Posts: 4138
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:59 am

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby purple rose » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:37 pm


User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:44 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Yudron » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 2820
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: How do Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:39 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 8493
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How do Buddhists explain this one?

Postby DGA » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:52 pm


greentara
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby greentara » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:34 pm

We have to agree that most religions including buddhism point towards disinterest in the body which is a way 'forward' on the spiritual path. We can surmise that not fueling desire is a common thread. With the internet packed to the rafters with porn, consumerism... it's an uphill battle for all but a few that are ripe and ready for the buddhas teaching. One can repeat it again and again the teaching 'is only for those with a little dust in their eyes.'

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 2818
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:24 am

The Pali Canon is some 40 volumes long, roughly about 20,000 pages and not a mention of homosexuality being prohibited for lay people. Celibacy is required of monks and nuns, so the list of inappropriate partners for them is everyone. For lay people we find:

Five types of sexual relations which involve sexual misconduct:

1. Anyone under the guardianship of their parents, i.e. under-aged
2. Protected by Dhamma, monks, nuns or those who have taken a vow of celibacy
3. Anyone married to someone else, i.e. adultery
4. Anyone undergoing punishment, i.e. prisoners
5. Anyone who is engaged to be married to someone else

Anguttara Nikaya V. 264

If it is supposed to be prohibited, you would think it would be mentioned somewhere within the 40 volumes and 20,000 pages, yet it is not. And yes, the Buddha knew of homosexuality and prohibited it (as well as heterosexuality) for the monks and nuns since they were celibate.

Note that the main point of the above is to only have sexual relations when the time is right and where there is honesty. There is no rule against sexual relations between same sex couples and also no rule against singles if they are mature and independent.
Image




Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Yudron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:32 am

Thank you David, I didn't know that this idea did not exist prior to the Mahayana.
Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: How do Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Grigoris » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:38 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:16 am

I don't think we should even talk about tolerance regarding homosexuality. It's a non issue. There's nothing to tolerate. Although it is not a normative sexual behavior, in part gladly or must of us wouldn't have born :lol: , it has nothing to do with moral. It's not a matter of moral loving or feeling sexual desire for the same gender. Or at least it doesn't have more to do with it than sex in general.
It's more a matter of biology/ psychology than anything else.

Things are quite explicit when it comes to unwholesome behavior: cause no harm (sometimes the tough part comes when we need to find out what really causes harm and what doesn't). So if one's sexual conduct is harmful, one should abstain from such behaviors, not mattering one's sexual orientation.
This doesn't mean that we can alter what is considered sexual misconduct though. It seems that using the wrong orifice has repercussions on the circulation of the prana. This applies to anyone doing it, not just gays. In case of male homosexuals, things may get a little tricky as they don't have as many options. So it's up to them to balance the pros and cons and then decide what to do. One can wonder what would be more problematic: having one's prana circulation a bit disordered for a while and correcting it with adequate exercises or being celibate (at least abstaining from anal/oral sex), with the consequences that may come for a lay person not psychologically prone to celibacy. It's an individual matter. So if there's a negative effect, there's a negative effect and there's no point in denying it to fit our ideas. But many of our behaviors have negative effects and we still aren't free from them. These things take time.

Unwholesome behavior has many, many facets. I'd say that gays don't particularly have more problems that the rest of the folks on the path, unless they fall for the whole "gay identity thing", which is not always the case. I met a lot of gay people in my life, some are close friends. If some are completely obsessed by their sexual predilection and their life revolves about this particular issue, others are just common folk who happen to feel sexually attracted by people of the same gender. If the first will probably have a lot of stuff to deal with, actual sexual practice probably being the less problematic, the second won't face more challenges than most people.

I really think this thread is a little silly. It's only tangential to Dharma, at least the bulk of it, is only connected with the circulation of the prana and it is not a matter of moral. At least not in most parts of the world. And where it still is a matter of moral, it shouldn't be. The subject can be deepened, obviously, because being gay has many implications, but when it comes to Dharma, there's really not much to say, or so I think.

Gay people interested in Dharma do very well to practice it. As anyone else. I d' say that pretty much covers all that should be said.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:45 pm

If a certain speech makes your blood boil that doesn't necessarily give you the right to call it hate speech. I tend not to ignore statements, for example, made by this indiviual:

Too many people in the West have given up on marriage. They don't understand that it is about developing a mutual admiration of someone, a deep respect and trust and awareness of another human's needs. The new easy-come, easy-go relationships give us more freedom - but less contentment.

I don't think people have become more selfish, but their lives have become easier and that has spoilt them. They have less resilience, they expect more, they constantly compare themselves to others and they have too much choice - which brings no real freedom.

A gay couple came to see me, seeking my support and blessing. I had to explain our teachings. Another lady introduced another woman as her wife - astonishing. It is the same with a husband and wife using certain sexual practices. Using the other two holes is wrong.

A Western friend asked me what harm could there be between consenting adults having oral sex, if they enjoyed it. But the purpose of sex is reproduction, according to Buddhism. The other holes don't create life. I don't mind - but I can't condone this way of life.


The Dalai Lama

It’s part of what we Buddhists call bad sexual conduct. Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element – and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view.

The Dalai Lama

It should hardly be news to anybody that this is the view according to the tradition.

But neither do I ignore this individual's speech:

Do not believe in what you have heard; do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations; do not believe anything because it is rumored and spoken of by many; do not believe merely because the written statement of some old sage is produced; do not believe in conjectures; do not believe merely in the authority of your teachers and elders. After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

The Buddha

User avatar
underthetree
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby underthetree » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:22 pm


Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Yudron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:09 pm

Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:35 pm

I think that from many of HIs Holiness' comments about homosexuality it is the most inflammatory that were posted, I am not sure as to why. Because His Holiness' views are evolving, and he has stated publicly he is coming to terms with the phenomenon of modern homosexuality, which was not widespread in Tibet.(Please not I am not arguing that there was no homosexual behaviour there, we know this is not the case. I am more speaking about the modern concept of identifying as gay or lesbian).

His Holiness has made many many kind and compassionate remarks about this issue. Why don't we also post those?

Wikipedia:
In his discussions of the traditional Buddhist view on appropriate sexual behavior, he explains the concept of "right organ in the right object at the right time," which historically has been interpreted as indicating that oral, manual and anal sex (both homosexual and heterosexual) are not appropriate in Buddhism or for Buddhists, yet he also says that in modern times all common, consensual sexual practices that do not cause harm to others are ethically acceptable and that society should not discriminate against gays and lesbians and should accept and respect them from a secular point of view.[73] In a 1994 interview with OUT Magazine, the Dalai Lama clarified his personal opinion on the matter by saying, "If someone comes to me and asks whether homosexuality is okay or not, I will ask 'What is your companion's opinion?'. If you both agree, then I think I would say, 'If two males or two females voluntarily agree to have mutual satisfaction without further implication of harming others, then it is okay.'"[74]

Yudron
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:55 pm
Location: Sunny California
Contact:

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Yudron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:41 pm

I thought about posting that, too, but it comes from 1994... before the inflammatory posts above, so that implies his opinions have changed.
Author of Buddhist young adult fiction. Vlogger at Wisdom and Compassion: Grandma Yudron's Totally Chill Vlog on Meditation and Tibetan Wisdom Blogger at Very active on Twitter.

JKhedrup
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:46 pm

Here's one from 2008. Quotes without context are deceptive. People should be aware those on the internet often have a wish to malign HHDL, merely because he is so loved.

The Dalai Lama welcomed participants in the World Conference of the International Lesbian and Gay Association, and issued a message of support, expressing concern "reports of violence and discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people" and urging "respect, tolerance and the full recognition of human rights for all."
http://www.wmtc.ca/2008/04/is-dalai-lam ... betan.html

To me HH's position is pretty clear as I have heard it. He is against discrimmination but feels that he cannot unilaterally change the ancient Mahayana commentaries (in this case by Vasubhandu I think) without a broader consultation with the Buddhist community.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:56 pm


User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: How do gay Buddhists explain this one?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:02 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests