Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby muni » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:15 pm

oushi wrote:[
There is no answer for the question what Dzogchen is.

No reference, inexpressible. :anjali:


Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helpless by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace.

Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche. :anjali:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby catmoon » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:18 am

There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.

I've found this to be true in several religions. External uniformity can be created, but internal.... I don't think so.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:49 pm

catmoon wrote:There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.

I've found this to be true in several religions. External uniformity can be created, but internal.... I don't think so.


:namaste:

Hi catmoon, all and ALL,

My 2 cents.

You mean "Dzogchen" is empty of self nature too? How can it be? :smile:

The Tibetans have a saying, "For every Lama a different Dharma."

Certainly the 17 +2 Dzogchen tantras form a base of commonalty of expression, that is generally accepted among the followers of Dzogchen.
But actually in Dzogchen you can't say anything about anything. The saying function just isn't there. Like trying to write on water or air.

That said, I think that individual realities may differ, depending on individual capabilities and karma, but I sense that the "transmission" of instant presence is the same - going all the way back.

How that experience (non-experience) is integrated into religious / practice / social forms, relates to, "Every Lama, a different Dharma".

The true test of a Dzogchen Master is that they carry on this living transmission. Hence the importance of taking "pointing out instruction" and the incredible preciousness of a Master, like ChNNR.

Best,

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

ob
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby catmoon » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:15 pm

oldbob wrote:
:namaste:

Hi catmoon, all and ALL,

My 2 cents.

You mean "Dzogchen" is empty of self nature too? How can it be? :smile:



That's exactly what I am saying, just a different style of expression. More Western-oriented.


The Tibetans have a saying, "For every Lama a different Dharma."

Certainly the 17 +2 Dzogchen tantras form a base of commonalty of expression, that is generally accepted among the followers of Dzogchen.
But actually in Dzogchen you can't say anything about anything. The saying function just isn't there. Like trying to write on water or air.

That said, I think that individual realities may differ, depending on individual capabilities and karma, but I sense that the "transmission" of instant presence is the same - going all the way back.

How that experience (non-experience) is integrated into religious / practice / social forms, relates to, "Every Lama, a different Dharma".

The true test of a Dzogchen Master is that they carry on this living transmission. Hence the importance of taking "pointing out instruction" and the incredible preciousness of a Master, like ChNNR.

Best,

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

ob


There is no transmission, nothing transmitted.... :jumping:

Srsly, what is called transmission, may be a lot more like clouds dispersing and letting the sun through. More like "See this? This is your hand. You've always had it. It's been hanging around on the end of your arm for ages" than "Here, take this loaf of bread."
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:52 pm

catmoon wrote:There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.

I've found this to be true in several religions. External uniformity can be created, but internal.... I don't think so.


Dzogchen is beyond distinctions. All the gurus of the lineage are indistinguishable.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:35 pm

catmoon wrote:There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.



You says this because you do not understand Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:31 pm

I'm amazed that anyone can understand what anyone else is saying at all.

When you start trying to talk about what essentially can't be talked about at all, of course there will be this kind of endless
chatter. Oldbob has the right approach I think in saying repeatedly that trying to say what dzogchen is like trying to write on water. It's useless and silly. And can't be done anyway.

But we are social creatures among other thing and so we have these forums, etc.

And for what it's worth, at the root of all this is craving. Craving for so many things. Craving to show off, to be right, to establish our credentials as this or that, to make contact, to have something happen that we can later grasp with our thoughts and thereby assure ourselves that we exist, and so and so on.

So be it. It's what we do.

For myself, I understand this craving to be a habit. One which I still rely on. But I'm clear it's not much more than habit.

Ha, ha....at least I see that much.

Ciao.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:59 pm

MalaBeads wrote:I'm amazed that anyone can understand what anyone else is saying at all.

When you start trying to talk about what essentially can't be talked about at all, of course there will be this kind of endless
chatter. Oldbob has the right approach I think in saying repeatedly that trying to say what dzogchen is like trying to write on water. It's useless and silly. And can't be done anyway.

But we are social creatures among other thing and so we have these forums, etc.

And for what it's worth, at the root of all this is craving. Craving for so many things. Craving to show off, to be right, to establish our credentials as this or that, to make contact, to have something happen that we can later grasp with our thoughts and thereby assure ourselves that we exist, and so and so on.

So be it. It's what we do.

For myself, I understand this craving to be a habit. One which I still rely on. But I'm clear it's not much more than habit.

Ha, ha....at least I see that much.

Ciao.


Theres the teaching and the personal realization. With respect to the first some might have to motivation to help people with understanding. With respect to the second, the teacher uses words and body language to point to it, and guru yoga is it. At least this is how it is presented. It seems some on this board like to focus on inexpressibility. That is fine for you. If you are taking a position in that you are wrong. It's about what will help someone. That means you will want to use sounds and syllables forming meaningful sentences to assist someone who seeks understanding.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:24 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:I'm amazed that anyone can understand what anyone else is saying at all.

When you start trying to talk about what essentially can't be talked about at all, of course there will be this kind of endless
chatter. Oldbob has the right approach I think in saying repeatedly that trying to say what dzogchen is like trying to write on water. It's useless and silly. And can't be done anyway.

But we are social creatures among other thing and so we have these forums, etc.

And for what it's worth, at the root of all this is craving. Craving for so many things. Craving to show off, to be right, to establish our credentials as this or that, to make contact, to have something happen that we can later grasp with our thoughts and thereby assure ourselves that we exist, and so and so on.

So be it. It's what we do.

For myself, I understand this craving to be a habit. One which I still rely on. But I'm clear it's not much more than habit.

Ha, ha....at least I see that much.

Ciao.


Theres the teaching and the personal realization. With respect to the first some might have to motivation to help people with understanding. With respect to the second, the teacher uses words and body language to point to it, and guru yoga is it. At least this is how it is presented. It seems some on this board like to focus on inexpressibility. That is fine for you. If you are taking a position in that you are wrong. It's about what will help someone. That means you will want to use sounds and syllables forming meaningful sentences to assist someone who seeks understanding.


Yes, of course, teachers must use sounds and letters and words and whatever they can use to help others.

But I am not a teacher. I am only a practitioner and as such do in fact emphasize something slightly different.

This board really only has a few people who have permission to teach. For the rest of us, we take care of our practice as best we can and if the opportunity presents itself to help someone else, then of course we respond. But the line is fine one between responding to help others and teaching. As I said, I'm surprised (or amazed) that anyone understand anyone at all.

But we do our best.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby catmoon » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
catmoon wrote:There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.



You says this because you do not understand Dzogchen.


Who is immune from delusion?
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:43 pm

People like to come here and debate. It helps folks clear things up.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:07 pm

deepbluehum wrote:People like to come here and debate. It helps folks clear things up.


I'm all for whatever helps people.

:anjali:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:13 pm

:namaste:

Many good posts on this thread. :twothumbsup:

There seems to be a feeling that perhaps it is presumptuous for anyone who is not a designated "Teacher" to say anything about Dzogchen, and I am completely agreeing with this.

So maybe the question that is ok to write about is: "am I beyond cause and effect?" :smile:

I don't know anything, about anything, including Dzogchen, but I have a good line of blah blah, and so, like a wind chime sounds when struck by the wind, when the wind of words on DW strikes my accumulated conceptions, something sounds off.

If my blah blah makes sense to someone, and clarifies their understanding, or rests their mind a little, then I am happy. I am quite sure that in 100 years, that anything I blah blah will make no difference to anyone. I am also quite sure that in a few years I will not be able to blah blah - even if I wanted to. So I blah blah now, while I still can. Maybe being "old" means that I can be forgiven my presumption. So if anyone takes offense at my blah blah, please remember that it will soon be gone.

The key point is that if we are followers of Mahayana, then we should be helping each other to get the benefit of Dharma. That is why I blah blah. This doesn't mean I am a teacher, or that I see myself as a teacher, it is just that I have been doing Dharma for 40 years, and Dzogchen for 32, and now it is time to blah blah. That said, I have no quarrel with anyone correcting or adding to what I am saying. This is called evolution by dialog: blah blahing towards Nirvana. :smile:

http://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Routledg ... 0415336414

This is the best potential of DW: not that we defend our position, or establish our superiority of experience, source, Teacher or view, but that we exchange information that might be helpful to our individual Dharma path leading to realization.

"Help the others" was the take-a-way from my first Tibetan (Kalmuk) Teacher, Geshe Wangyal. So I try to act from that imperative.
That is my cause and the blah blah is the effect. So I am certainly NOT Dzogchen and certainly NOT beyond cause and effect.

That said-----

Dzogchen Masters Teach in three ways: giving direct introduction, using symbols, and by explanation. All three methods of expression are equally expressions of Dzogchen. These are the expressions of the 3 Kayas. The fourth Kaya is all three together, meaning that the 3 modes of expression are inherently inseparable. We can talk about them separately, and as being separate, but in essence they are one.

I like to mention the inexpressibility of the non-conceptual state, because, maybe someone, who when taking the pointing out instruction, and finds themselves with no mode of expression, (like trying to write on water) they will understand that this experience is normal, and they will then be able to relax more easily into this state, where there is no conceptual ground to stand on. (Whew - long sentence.)

This sounds a little complicated, but it is not. It is like catmoon said, "See this? This is your hand. You've always had it. It's been hanging around on the end of your arm for ages"

This is why some call it your "true nature" or the "natural state." You have always had it (meaning that you did not have to do anything to "get" it), and so in this way, Dzogchen can be understood to be beyond cause and effect. This is explained much more eloquently in the Nine Amazing Things and the Twelve Vajra Laughs. You can search on these phrases, or PM me if you can't find these.

A Teacher sometimes also teaches through holding up symbols of the natural state, such as a peacock feather, a mirror, a needle, or a crystal, etc. For those to whom the symbol is meaningful, a symbol can also "point out" the natural state, without the use of any words.

The 17 +2 Dzogchen Tantras and other ancient works and commentaries explain Dzogchen in lots of words, so that we can learn to let go of the words, and learn to integrate the natural state with experience, 24/7.

If you search on Dzogchen on Amazon books you find 527 results.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... ooks%2C186

For Mahamudra there are another 454 results.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_1?rh= ... 1348955219

You can spend your next 20 life times reading (and I see nothing wrong with that, if that is what YOU want to do, and it makes you happy), OR you can take pointing out instruction, and then through practice you can develop confidence, and develop capacity to integrate 24/7, in this life. It depends on what you want to do. :smile:

Sorry for the long blah blah.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long in good health and with success in all things.

:heart:
Last edited by oldbob on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:29 pm

Dear oldbob,

Sorry to have dragged you into this. Sort of sorry. Well, from a selfish point of view, not sorry at all.

So glad you're here.

Are you married?

<really, really laughing at myself while tears roll down my face>

:heart:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:37 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Dear oldbob,

Sorry to have dragged you into this. Sort of sorry. Well, from a selfish point of view, not sorry at all.

So glad you're here.

Are you married?

<really, really laughing at myself while tears roll down my face>

:heart:


Married to Dharma. Sometimes I have lady friends. :smile:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:54 pm

oldbob wrote:I don't know anything, about anything, including Dzogchen, but I have a good line of blah blah, and so, like a wind chime sounds when struck by the wind, when the wind of words on DW strikes my accumulated conceptions, something sounds off.

If my blah blah makes sense to someone, and clarifies their understanding, or rests their mind a little, then I am happy. I am quite sure that in 100 years, that anything I blah blah will make no difference to anyone. I am also quite sure that in a few years I will not be able to blah blah - even if I wanted to. So I blah blah now, while I still can. Maybe being "old" means that I can be forgiven my presumption. So if anyone takes offense at my blah blah, please remember that it will soon be gone.

The key point is that if we are followers of Mahayana, then we should be helping each other to get the benefit of Dharma. That is why I blah blah. This doesn't mean I am a teacher, or that I see myself as a teacher, it is just that I have been doing Dharma for 40 years, and Dzogchen for 32, and now it is time to blah blah. That said, I have no quarrel with anyone correcting or adding to what I am saying. This is called evolution by dialog: blah blahing towards Nirvana. :smile:


This is an absolutely wonderful post, OldBob. I hope with all my heart you'll be blah blahing many, many a year still. We very much need that sound.

:heart:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:01 pm

catmoon wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
catmoon wrote:There is no Dzogchen, it's just a word. Each person's practice differs radically from the next guy's even if they are chanting from the same book, reciting identical words. That in turn differs radically from the teacher's practice, and his teacher's practice, all the way back.



You says this because you do not understand Dzogchen.


Who is immune from delusion?

It's not about immunity from delusion. The reason your previous comment doesn't makes sense in the context of Dzogchen is that actual Dzogchen practice is just knowledge of the natural state. Since the natural state does not differ in the slightest between beings, Dzogchen practice doesn't differ an iota either beings aside from the extent of their stability, i.e. are they in that knowledge all the time or do they still get distracted. It has nothing to do with chanting or working with concepts of any kind.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:41 pm

That ^
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Sönam » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:59 am

^ :twothumbsup: ...
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby catmoon » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:40 pm

Ok, then there should be zero difference between realized masters.
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