is this the jist of born again christianity?

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is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:21 pm

http://everyschool.com/his-story-by-kara

Someone sent this to me with a message they were worried for my soul.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby justsit » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:33 pm

Yup, that about covers it.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:56 pm

:alien: :alien: :alien: :alien: :alien:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:26 pm

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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby viniketa » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:34 pm

If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Jesse » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:16 am

Yes Buddhist beliefs are so much more 'sane'. :thinking:
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:54 am

Since I am going to a group self-initiation practice in an hour, I realize fully that some aspects of the dharma can seem curious to outsiders. Indeed it was because of sound foundational principles that I was able to accept and derive benefit from the more esoteric things.

I do feel the basic principles- the nuts and bolts if you will, can actually endure a fair amount of scrutiny. Especially the 4 Noble Truths, the teachings on the afflictive emotions, the nature and function of the mind, etc.

This girl's blurb surprised me because as I understand it this is what she said:
Because two people who "hung out" (her words) with god displeased him by disobeying his orders and picking apples, they are sinners.

The wages of sin is death, so death is the only acceptable ransom to god for the sins of ourselves and the original sin. (which still taints you even if you haven't sinned)

Because of that someone had to die for our sins. But the only acceptable ransom to a (perfect) god, would be the death of someone without sin. So he sent his perfect son Jesus, who died for our sins.

So if we believe in Jesus, we can be free. But we have to accept his gift of salvation unequivocally. In her words "Karma, good works, won't help". So our actions don't matter an iota (in this school of Christianity). Only belief does.

So by extension an axe murderer who killed 30 people but accepts Jesus' sacrifice for humanity gets to go to heaven, while an atheist cancer researcher who saved the lives of thousands gets hell.

The disturbing thing too is that the website that this person sent me aims to indoctrinate youth to convert heathen souls in the public schools, as mission work is not permitted by adults in the secular education system.

I'm not trying to be difficult here. We parse every piece of Buddhist teachings on this board so I don't think there is a double-standard.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby lobster » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:33 am

I can not watch material that is so [insert assessment of choice], after 20 seconds I got the gist . . .

The question is perhaps how we can deal with such things skillfully . . .
If we assume the person has a Yidam called Jesus and a Mandala creation myth, then we have a more applicable context . . . :smile:
If we know the Bible (as many of us do) we may engage with their ideas of forgiveness, if we wish.
Here is a teaching it is believed was influenced by the Yidam Christ interaction and incorporated into a mandala you may recognise . . .

By thinking of all sentient beings
As more precious than a wish-fulfilling jewel
For accomplishing the highest aim,
I will always hold them dear.

Whenever I’m in the company of others,
I will regard myself as the lowest among all,
And from the depths of my heart
Cherish others as supreme.

In my every action, I will watch my mind,
And the moment destructive emotions arise,
I will confront them strongly and avert them,
Since they will hurt both me and others.

Whenever I see ill-natured people,
Or those overwhelmed by heavy misdeeds or suffering,
I will cherish them as something rare,
As though I’d found a priceless treasure.

Whenever someone out of envy
Does me wrong by attacking or belittling me,
I will take defeat upon myself,
And give the victory to others.

Even when someone I have helped,
Or in whom I have placed great hopes
Mistreats me very unjustly,
I will view that person as a true spiritual teacher.

In brief, directly or indirectly,
I will offer help and happiness to all my mothers,
And secretly take upon myself
All their hurt and suffering.

I will learn to keep all these practices
Untainted by thoughts of the eight worldly concerns.
May I recognize all things as like illusions,
And, without attachment, gain freedom from bondage.


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eight_Verses_of_Training_the_Mind
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby justsit » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:33 pm

Christianity, like Buddhism, comes in many flavors. The "Born again" video example is rock bottom fundamentalism; there are many more subtle and compassionate variations throughout the Christian world. For a much different Western view, try Thomas Merton.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Indrajala » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:59 pm

JKhedrup wrote:I'm not trying to be difficult here. We parse every piece of Buddhist teachings on this board so I don't think there is a double-standard.


I guess this young lady and her associates feel what they're doing is quite important and necessary. However, the message is one of fear rather than reasonable arguments. You are freed from the wrath of god and hell by belief in a myth. That's all it takes. You believe in Jesus and you're saved from a god who got upset at his creation for disobeying him about an apple tree.

A lot of people just don't buy that anymore and feel it to be repulsive.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:42 pm

:coffee: You have a soul?

Christianity is based on the view that as long as you confess your sins and accept Christ, with a blind faith you go to heaven.

I was raised Catholic and then into a more Christian based system. I had always had trouble accepting the writings in the bible that were contradictory to themselves.

Example: God is an all loving and forgiving father, and each of us is part of him. But do not follow the path laid out you go to hell.

How does an all forgiving and loving deity send you to eternal damnation? Also if we are all part of him, sending a soul to hell is like cutting off the nose to spite the face. Or because your finger flipped someone off you need to cut it off and burn it eternally...


I hear many people preach in the AA group I attend, some say without God and Christ you will never remain sober since your sins will keep you from progressing along said path.
Bullshit! I have remained sober by finding the reason I want to remain sober, happiness, and Buddhism has shown me that suffering is by my own choice. Not that of a sin committed by two people eating an apple. :thinking:
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Jesse » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:46 pm

You believe in Jesus and you're saved from a god who got upset at his creation for disobeying him about an apple tree.


You follow the path and you become an omniscient buddha. cough.
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:31 pm

...born again christianity...
Through the round of many births I roamed...Painful is birth, again & again... :mrgreen:
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Indrajala » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:39 pm

ghost01 wrote:
You believe in Jesus and you're saved from a god who got upset at his creation for disobeying him about an apple tree.


You follow the path and you become an omniscient buddha. cough.


Indeed, free from all suffering and in an optimal position to aid innumerable beings.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Indrajala » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:51 pm

Let's be mindful of this rule from the TOS:

- This is not a "comparative religion site", it is a site to learn and discuss the Buddha's teachings without animosity.
- In support of this:

* Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.
* Proselyting / evangelizing other paths, which includes, for example, arguing that some other path is superior to the Buddhist path is not allowed.


Discussion is of course fine, but let's not badmouth anything. This isn't directed at anyone, but just a reminder.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby Jikan » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:01 pm

justsit wrote:Christianity, like Buddhism, comes in many flavors. The "Born again" video example is rock bottom fundamentalism; there are many more subtle and compassionate variations throughout the Christian world. For a much different Western view, try Thomas Merton.


Or Jurgen Moltmann.
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:39 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:45 pm

Yes, I am a big fan of Thomas Merton and have read several of his books.
This is why I was careful to specify "this form of Christianity" in my comments and called the thread "jist of Born Again Christianity" rather than "jist of Christianity".
I am not sure why I posted this other than I was disturbed that someone had sent it to me. The website seems to me to be very heavy and frightening.
I feel this video on the same site has very disturbing implications:
http://everyschool.com/before-it-s-too-late
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby viniketa » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:49 pm

I live in a part of the world where "born again' Christianity is very mainstream. The first video is very much the "gist" of it, it is even at the level of understanding that the typical adult (not just teens) has of their faith. It is very patriarchal, not requiring more than the belief that God is the father, the father's word is unquestioned, and the Son is God (but a little more forgiving). Belief in the forgiveness of the Son is all that is needed to be "saved". I know many persons for whom this is as unshakable as the fact that the sun shines during the day. It is also very evangelical. If one has accepted Jesus into their heart, it is their duty to "testify" about this to everyone they know. I have been told by friends that I'm a very good person, so It's a shame I'm going to Hell because I've never accepted Jesus as my one and only savior.

I no longer even think twice about it. If this is their belief, if it is so strong, and if they are happier thinking I will go to Hell, that is OK. In most cases, their belief has made them a better person with the exception of their judgmentalism and intolerance. But those are traits not limited to Born Again Christians, either.

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: is this the jist of born again christianity?

Postby greentara » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:41 pm

Huseng, "a lot of people just don't buy that anymore and feel it to be repulsive" There maybe a lot wrong with Christianity but I don't find the Sermon on the Mount to be repulsive.
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