Osel Hita Torres - The reluctant lama

[Indrajala]

A Spanish toddler identified as the reincarnation of a revered Buddhist lama spent his entire childhood in an Indian monastery. But at the age of 18 he returned to his family in Spain. Still hailed as a teacher, he is more comfortable on the beaches of Ibiza.

Continue reading here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19702122


This isn't the first western tulku to give up his position.

[plwk]

And won't be the last...

[udawa]

Well, at least it makes a change from 'Fernando Torres - the reluctant goalscorer' - a more familiar BBC story!

[JKhedrup]

I appreciate Osel-la's candidness and wish him all the best. It doesn't seem that this system is that well suited to the modern Western world, though in many ways it seems to have worked in Tibet.
I haven't yet met Osel but I met Gomo Tulku on several occasions. Though initially pretty skeptical I found him to be a warm, compassionate and perceptive human being. So although he might not have filled the institutional role of tulku, I wonder if he did carry the great potential of his predecessor to benefit others.

[lisehull]

If you have been recognized as a tulku, I would assume that stays with you regardless of your acceptance of that recognition. Osel is still a tulku even though he is not living that way.

[Jikan]

who knows? maybe he *is* living as a bodhisattva, in an unconventional way.

[T. Chokyi]

I appreciate Osel-la's candidness and wish him all the best. It doesn't seem that this system is that well suited to the modern Western world, though in many ways it seems to have worked in Tibet.
I haven't yet met Osel but I met Gomo Tulku on several occasions. Though initially pretty skeptical I found him to be a warm, compassionate and perceptive human being. So although he might not have filled the institutional role of tulku, I wonder if he did carry the great potential of his predecessor to benefit others.

Thank you for sharing JKhedrup-la, yes, it does not seem that the system you are referring to is completely suited to the modern western world, seems generally like an interesting "time" we're living in, many kinds of transitions are not so seemless. I know you know something of Instituto Lama Tzong Khapa, a place Osel taught from back in April, but maybe not so many practitioners know about this place, so when I saw this topic I thought the most recent links maybe of interest, seems Gomo Tulku whom you met was also present at this April 2012 teaching:

Osel Hita told a group of students in April 2012:
“The first step for harmonious communities is to be aware of your own actions and thoughts".

A 50-minute recording of the talk is now available online. This was the first time Osel had spoken to a group of Western Dharma students in over a decade. Gomo Tulku also joined the discussion, which took place at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa in Italy.

The link to listen to the 50 min teaching is here within the second sentence of this article:
http://www.mandalamagazine.org/2012/ose ... en-online/

In case some did not know, Instituto Lama Tzong Khapa is where the "Masters Class" is taught in person or on the web, used to be a six year teachers course, I think it maybe seven year now, its an incredible opportunity to study Abhisamayalamkara (for example).

Imho, the Instituto would only invite speakers with the best of reputations and intentions, as this is their central facility world wide for the Masters Class, which is another reason the location where Tulku Osel is speaking from is highly significant. He is speaking from this incredible place which offers some really heavy duty studies by great teachers, I think JKhedrup knows this places reputation.

Here is the information:

http://www.fpmt.org/education/programs/masters-program.html

http://education.iltk.org/activities/education/tibetan-buddhism/advanced-programs/masters-program

Incidentally, I attended for a while with two of my teachers blessings, since both of them were not Gelugpa I thought they might have something to say about it, they both gave me blessings to study, so I do have a first hand experience with this place, I felt honored to be accepted to the Masters Class. It is significant that Tulku Osel is giving a teaching from such a respected place as this, maybe people outside this organization wouldn't understand that. I was most interested in "The Ornament for Clear Realizations" by Maitreya (Abhisamayalamkara) and the texts they were using, as the translations were in full, and very good ones directly from the respective Geshes. At the time you couldn't find too many teachings for Western people that went into as much depth as they were getting into the text in Tibetan and English.

Osel Hita speaks at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, April 2012. Photo by Piero Sirianni.

[Raksha]

'If you have been recognized as a tulku, I would assume that stays with you regardless of your acceptance of that recognition. Osel is still a tulku even though he is not living that way.'

Unfortunately not...if reincarnate Lamas depart from their training then they can very easily degenerate into ordinary people. (Though of course they will always be more fortunate and insightful than others, and naturally their connection with the Dharma will tend to resurface.) During the Communist purges of the last century countless monks died prematurely and many of these migrated to the West, which was understandably seen as a place of freedom. Some of these recycled Asian monks are now Western Buddhists, but many are just ordinary people; doctors, musicians and so forth. Tibetan tulkus who fail to complete their training in this life, or in some cases fail to do any training at all, should generally not be considered to be qualified teachers.
R.

[Konchog1]

Well, technically, we're all Tulkus.

[kirtu]

Well, technically, we're all Tulkus.

Not so since we have not all intentionally taken rebirth out of compassion for all beings.

There is that great line from Dracula (1992) though: "I have crossed oceans of time for you". We are all rebirths but many of us want to suck each other's blood and are more like echos of the hell beings that we just were.

Kirt

[Indrajala]

'If you have been recognized as a tulku, I would assume that stays with you regardless of your acceptance of that recognition. Osel is still a tulku even though he is not living that way.'

Unfortunately not...if reincarnate Lamas depart from their training then they can very easily degenerate into ordinary people. (Though of course they will always be more fortunate and insightful than others, and naturally their connection with the Dharma will tend to resurface.) During the Communist purges of the last century countless monks died prematurely and many of these migrated to the West, which was understandably seen as a place of freedom. Some of these recycled Asian monks are now Western Buddhists, but many are just ordinary people; doctors, musicians and so forth. Tibetan tulkus who fail to complete their training in this life, or in some cases fail to do any training at all, should generally not be considered to be qualified teachers.
R.

Consider how between 1945~1990 thereabouts how many Buddhists in Asia were specifically targeted and butchered, and then how many otherwise ordinary westerners born in those years take a peculiar interest in and have an immediate attraction to Buddhism. They might have had minimal to no exposure to Buddhism in their childhood and youth, but nevertheless are immediately attracted to the imagery when seeing it.

I think a lot of people here can sympathize with what I'm saying.

[gregkavarnos]

You do not need to have been an (Asian) Buddhist in a previous life in order to be a (Western) Buddhist now. The accumulation of merit necessary for one to come into contact with Dharma is not the monopoly of Buddhists. If it was then there could not have been any Pratyeka Buddhas or enlightened beings before Buddhism. Consider also the number of "Western" Buddhists that existed in Bactria during the growth phase of Buddhism in India. Were they all reincarnations of dead Indian Buddhists? I don't think so. Were they necessarily students of Kassapa Buddha or any of the other 27 Buddhas of this age? Not necessarily. Merit leads one onto and along the path of Dharma.

Abhisanda Sutta: Rewards
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Monks, there are these eight rewards of merit, rewards of skillfulness, nourishments of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing, to welfare & happiness. Which eight?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Buddha for refuge. This is the first reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Dhamma for refuge. This is the second reward of merit...

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones has gone to the Sangha for refuge. This is the third reward of merit...

"Now, there are these five gifts, five great gifts — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. Which five?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the first gift, the first great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the fourth reward of merit...

"Furthermore, abandoning taking what is not given (stealing), the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking what is not given. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the second gift, the second great gift... and this is the fifth reward of merit...

"Furthermore, abandoning illicit sex, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from illicit sex. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the third gift, the third great gift... and this is the sixth reward of merit...

"Furthermore, abandoning lying, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from lying. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fourth gift, the fourth great gift... and this is the seventh reward of merit...

"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness.

[gregkavarnos]

Unfortunately not...

Source please.

...if reincarnate Lamas depart from their training then they can very easily degenerate into ordinary people ... Tibetan tulkus who fail to complete their training in this life, or in some cases fail to do any training at all, should generally not be considered to be qualified teachers.

So what you are saying is that the mindstream of the reincarnated being ceases to be a continuation of the mind stream of the previous being? How? It seems to me that you are confounding the terms tulku and lama. Somebody can be a lama and not a tulku and a tulku but not a lama. Osel Hita Torres is a tulku but he is not a lama? I doubt that too. I am sure that after 16 years in a monastary he would have received all the formal education (ie qualifications) of a lama, irregardless of whether he considers himself a (adequate) teacher or not.

[Raksha]

Unfortunately not..'

Source please.

That would be..me

So what you are saying is that the mindstream of the reincarnated being ceases to be a continuation of the mind stream of the previous being? How? It seems to me that you are confounding the terms tulku and lama. Somebody can be a lama and not a tulku and a tulku but not a lama.

When the pack is reshuffled any card could come out on top. Just because all the cards you played with previously are retained in the pack does not make it a continuation of the last game. You might have all the aces in your pack from previous wins but still have a very bad card on the top...this is how you get criminal tulkus .
As you pointed out there are lamas who are not tulkus, because, it is the practice in this life that really counts, and by the same token a tulku who is not a trained lama is...nothing.
R.

[gregkavarnos]

When the pack is reshuffled any card could come out on top. Just because all the cards you played with previously are retained in the pack does not make it a continuation of the last game. You might have all the aces in your pack from previous wins but still have a very bad card on the top...this is how you get criminal tulkus.

What are you talking about? The alaya vijnana is not a deck of card that gets shuffled every time one is reborn. It contains all the seeds of past karma. There is no randomness involved. The seeds ripen according to causes and conditions. A tulku cannot change what/who they were, they can change what/who they are now and thus influence whay/who they will be in the future.

I cannot go back and change my childhood in order to give me different results now. At some point in time the seeds of my childhood actions will ripen, given correct causes and conditions. I can work to ensure that the causes and conditions do not come together (ie by accumulating merit and wisdom) but even Angulimala (an Arhat) had to bear the ripening of his past negative actions. Even as an Arhat he could not avoid them.

Anyway, your statement has no bearing whatsoever on my question to you: "So what you are saying is that the mindstream of the reincarnated being ceases to be a continuation of the mind stream of the previous being?". If yes, then you posit that there is no continuation, ie that karma does not produce a result over lifetimes. That makes your argument nihilistic.

As you pointed out there are lamas who are not tulkus, because, it is the practice in this life that really counts, and by the same token a tulku who is not a trained lama is...nothing.

Nothing? It makes them a lot of different things, it just does not make them a lama.

Anyway, your statement has no bearing whatsoever on my statement: "I am sure that after 16 years in a monastary he would have received all the formal education (ie qualifications) of a lama, irregardless of whether he considers himself a (adequate) teacher or not." ie He is a lama, but he does not teach (well, he does teach actually).

[Raksha]

What are you talking about? The alaya vijnana is not a deck of card that gets shuffled every time one is reborn. It contains all the seeds of past karma. There is no randomness involved. The seeds ripen according to causes and conditions. A tulku cannot change what/who they were, they can change what/who they are now and thus influence what/who they will be in the future.

I cannot go back and change my childhood in order to give me different results now. At some point in time the seeds of my childhood actions will ripen, given correct causes and conditions.

Anyway, your statement has no bearing whatsoever on my question to you: "So what you are saying is that the mindstream of the reincarnated being ceases to be a continuation of the mind stream of the previous being?". If yes, then you posit that there is no continuation, ie that karma does not produce a result over lifetimes. That makes your argument nihilistic.

Ha Ha Greg! How many causes and conditions are there?..accumulated during almost infinite previous lives. I didn't say it was random exactly but...you get my drift?. Certainly persistent trends will tend to be uppermost, but that's not guaranteed. I agree that a tulku can 'change who/what they are now' they can change from being a Buddhist practitioner into an ordinary person, or even into a harmful criminal .
As for the question concerning what is reincarnated, according to Sakya Pandita, ' It is incorrect to conceive of this great river, holding all seeds, as a self, therefore I have not taught this to the childish.' Your assertion that the succession of lives is akin to the transition between childhood and adulthood is therefore completely incorrect. People are not reincarnated, only their components.
Lastly, please stop trying to squeeze my postings into some opinionated box that you have pre-prepared, in line with your own views. Instead please read what I have actually written. I have never mentioned Osel Hita Torres specifically, nor would I. My contribution to this thread is actually about tulkus in general, and the fact that their suitability as an object of reverence is not inherent, but rather relates to their ongoing success as senior practitioners. When this comes to an end, so does their status.
R.

[gregkavarnos]

...they can change from being a Buddhist practitioner into an ordinary person.

Hate to be the one to inform you but Buddhist practitioners are ordinary people too.

...according to Sakya Pandita, ' It is incorrect to conceive of this great river, holding all seeds, as a self, therefore I have not taught this to the childish.' Your assertion that the succession of lives is akin to the transition between childhood and adulthood is therefore completely incorrect.

Μy abovementioned statements regarding reincarnation in no way contradict Sakya Pandita. I never mentioned a self in the process, I talked about a continuation of a mind stream, the alaya vijnana element actually (one element of the the skhanda). As for the example I furnished:

King Milinda said; "Reverend Nagasena, is he who uprises the same or is he another?
"Neither the same nor another. What do you think about this, sire? Now that you are grown up are you the same as you were when you were a boy, young, tender, lying on your back?"
No reverend sir. That boy, young, tender, lying on his back was one thing. I, who am now full grown, am another."

Excerpt from The Questions of King Milinda (Milindapanha)
So I guess you consider the Arhat Nagasena incorrect in his statement/logic too?

My contribution to this thread is actually about tulkus in general, and the fact that their suitability as an object of reverence is not inherent, but rather relates to their ongoing success as senior practitioners. When this comes to an end, so does their status.

One's ongoing success as a senior practitioner, regardless of whether one is a tulku or not, makes one a worthy object of reverence.

Moreover, from the time that he makes the aspiration, the bodhisattva becomes like a father to all beings, wishing for their welfare. By reason of his distinguished qualities he is worthy of offerings, worthy of reverence, worthy of esteem, a supreme field of merit. He is generally dear to humans and to non-humans alike, and is protected by deities. Because his mind is grounded in loving-kindness and compassion, he cannot be harmed by wild beasts, etc. Whatever order of beings he is reborn in, on account of his distinguished merit, he surpasses the other beings there in his superior beauty, fame, happiness, strength, and dominion.

A Treatise on the Paramis (Paramitas) From the Commentary to the Cariyapitaka by Acariya Dhammapala translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el409.html

[Indrajala]

People are not reincarnated, only their components.

There were plenty of Buddhist in India who insisted there was a person (pudgala) that was reborn. Neither the same as nor different from the aggregates. Of course this didn't agree with everyone, but they were a large chunk of the Buddhist population in India.

It isn't a big deal to say people or beings are reborn provided you understand they dissolve into their parts and do not constitute any kind of eternal or unchanging thing.

[Raksha]

Dear Greg, My apologies, as often happens on internet forums, we appear to be talking at cross purposes, when in reality we are both reading from the same page. ''One's ongoing success as a senior practitioner, regardless of whether one is a tulku or not, makes one a worthy object of reverence.'' I agree, and what's more my view is exactly that of Nagasena 'neither the same nor another' Though I will say that Buddhist teachings are sometimes pitched to a specific audience; monks, realised yogis or whatever, therefore they are not universally applicable. This can cause a lot of misunderstanding. Lastly, thankyou for that beautiful quote, as a determined non-sectarian I am always on the lookout for teachings that bridge the different traditions.
R.

[lobster]

Go west young lama . . .

integrity and growth comes at a price
thus have you herd? [sic]

We are the Buddhas of the West (franchises still emerging)
We are the Sangha of the West (fashioning our robes)
Dharma drama now happening . . .

In nomine Patris et fillii et Spiritus Sancti
as the Bishop said to the Gnu Guru