Yogacara and dzogchen

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:59 am

Sönam wrote:Jyoti, in Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two
truths, trikaya, etc.


Ch'an said the same thing and the result is the rising number of people who assert
there is no consequence of karma, or straying to the extreme of dropping all,
attachment to no-thought or conceptualizing an emptiness as the ultimate, etc. The
Chinese Yogacara has addressed these problems specifically.

Knowing the elements of definitive dharma, such as the three natures, the two truths,
trikaya, etc. helps to avoid those extremes, helps in gaining the certainty that one is on
the right track as well as helps in gaining the ability to help others who are going
astray.

Circumstances are that you meet a teacher, that he introduces to your own nature, then
you realize it and you continue in that realization ...


The realization that is being continue will include the stability of the realization and
consequently the sign of the mastery of the elements of the definitive dharma,
otherwise the chance is pretty good that it is an indication of going astray.

Like ch'an, dzogchen is the type of teaching that is prone to produce people who are
going astray. The reason is that both teachings are not meant for beginners of dharma,
it is meant for persons who have already enter the path of bodhisattva in previous lives
and so already have various seeds of the intellect being planted, where the only
requirement is to have these seeds activated by contact with such dharma.
But if a person who is naturally adverse to the mahayana scriptures, even after being
introduce to the view, it is also sign that he/she has not previously accumulated the
merit of mahayana, and the chance that he/she will be able to uphold the authentic
view is questionable.

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Sönam » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:09 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Sönam wrote:Jyoti, in Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two
truths, trikaya, etc.


Ch'an said the same thing and the result is the rising number of people who assert
there is no consequence of karma, or straying to the extreme of dropping all,
attachment to no-thought or conceptualizing an emptiness as the ultimate, etc. The
Chinese Yogacara has addressed these problems specifically.


This is a non-argument, it's an opinion, a belieft of a non dzogchen practitioner ... so listen: "I tell you" once more, for your knowledge and possibly understanding, "in Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two truths, trikaya, etc." That's all Jyoti.

Circumstances are that you meet a teacher, that he introduces to your own nature, then
you realize it and you continue in that realization ...


Like ch'an, dzogchen is the type of teaching that is prone to produce people who are
going astray. ...


I love your certitude Jyoti :popcorn: BTW, what are your own references to pretend that dzogchen is so and so ... did you receive instructions, or is it only prid and ego triping?

Sönam

:focus: ... but there is no topic!
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:10 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It would be more accurate to say that Dzogchen finds the doctrine of the dependent
nature faulty. The fault for which the yogacara school is criticized is the assertion the
dependent nature is ultimate.


The dependent arising nature (依他起性 paratantra-svabhāva) is not considered the
same as the absolute nature (圓成實性 parini·panna-svabhāva). The former is the
means of the latter (body), only the body is considered as established and therefore
ultimate. The two is not consider separate nor same, this is the basis of the two truths.

Jyoti
Again it. I don't agree with both of you. There are never such reference points in Yogacara but only a pointing-out if is anything beyond them. The notes:

In The Sutra That Unravels the Intention the Buddha also said:
Having this threefold lack of nature in mind—the lack of nature in
terms of characteristics (1), the lack of nature in terms of arising (2), and the
ultimate lack of nature (3)—I have taught, “All phenomena lack a
nature."


The Sutra That Unravels the Intention, the lineage of vast activity (Yogacara) explains
that the imaginary nature is like being affected by the disease of blurred vision;
the other-dependent nature is like the manifestations that appear due to blurred
vision; and the perfect nature is like the natural object of clear vision upon being
cured.

Vasubandhu’s Thirty Verses says:
Based on the three kinds of lack of nature
Of the three kinds of nature,
It is taught that all phenomena
Are without nature.


The dependent nature (2) is posited to be truly existent only from POV of the conflict with the imaginary (1). In other words it is accepted only as a "antidote, medicine" to point-out what is suppose to be the naturally empty, where "the total freedom from all reference points" = "the unblurred, unimpaired vision" (3)... http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html where notes from the past forums here.

----------------------
As I wrote previously, it is not really different from Madhyamaka where Santideva pointed-out the cure by "antidote, medicine" of the analysis:

Once what had to be analyzed has been analyzed,
The analysis has no basis left.
Since there is no basis, it does not continue.
This is expressed as nirvana

Of course as i wrote the difference is: Yogacara and Madhyamaka relies on the analysis until its collapse beyond all extremes in the end. Dzogchen relies on Direct Introduction into Rigpa since the start.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:19 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It would be more accurate to say that Dzogchen finds the doctrine of the dependent
nature faulty. The fault for which the yogacara school is criticized is the assertion the
dependent nature is ultimate.


The dependent arising nature (依他起性 paratantra-svabhāva) is not considered the
same as the absolute nature (圓成實性 parini·panna-svabhāva). The former is the
means of the latter (body), only the body is considered as established and therefore
ultimate. The two is not consider separate nor same, this is the basis of the two truths.

Jyoti


The perfected nature (parinispanna) is the non-existence of the imagined nature (parikalpita) in the dependent nature, that is all. The dependent nature, nevertheless is considered ultimate in Indian Yogacara.

M
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It would be more accurate to say that Dzogchen finds the doctrine of the dependent
nature faulty. The fault for which the yogacara school is criticized is the assertion the
dependent nature is ultimate.


The dependent arising nature (依他起性 paratantra-svabhāva) is not considered the
same as the absolute nature (圓成實性 parini·panna-svabhāva). The former is the
means of the latter (body), only the body is considered as established and therefore
ultimate. The two is not consider separate nor same, this is the basis of the two truths.

Jyoti


The perfected nature (parinispanna) is the non-existence of the imagined nature (parikalpita) in the dependent nature, that is all. The dependent nature, nevertheless is considered ultimate in Indian Yogacara.

M
If one can see my quotes from Vasubandhu and Buddha in this way, of course it is not a big problem. Tsongkhapa and others innovators used to like to see them this way of course.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby byamspa » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:26 pm

Energizer bunny thread...it keeps going and going and going....
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby greentreee » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:59 pm

byamspa wrote:Energizer bunny thread...it keeps going and going and going....


funny you mention that, in some ways, this does seem like a tortoise and hare debate about where or more appropriately, what, the end is, and who'll get there first!
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:03 pm

Mariusz wrote:If one can see my quotes from Vasubandhu and Buddha in this way, of course it is not a big problem. Tsongkhapa and others innovators used to like to see them this way of course.


Tsongkhapa, etc., is not an innovator in the slightest -- the innovators are people like Dolbupa etc., who have invented a Yogacara that never existed in India.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:25 pm

greentreee wrote:
byamspa wrote:Energizer bunny thread...it keeps going and going and going....


funny you mention that, in some ways, this does seem like a tortoise and hare debate about where or more appropriately, what, the end is, and who'll get there first!


I don't think the discussion is of that nature in any way. It's not about what the end is, or who will get there first... those are childish concerns, in my opinion at least. Yogācāra is all well and good, it is what it is... and likewise dzogchen is what it is. The issue is that there are individuals posting here, who don't understand dzogchen and are baselessly asserting that the two (Yogācāra and Dzogchen) are equivalent. That, is why there has to be extensive clarification and refutation, because they are not the same, and it is reckless and dangerous to claim that they are. As long as those who are actively engaged in making unfounded statements of that nature continue to do so, rebuttals will occur. And if it never ends then so be it.

This is a public platform that is somewhat popular, it's certainly a valuable resource and wellspring of knowledge (this day in age) for those interested in these teachings. People come here to learn and further their own understanding, if we sit idly by and allow incorrect or uninformed statements to be made regarding certain traditions then that is what is being read, and that information is what people are walking away with. It would not be fair to them nor to the teaching itself to remain silent and enable exegetical degradation of that nature.

Not that the teaching truly can be degraded, but disinformation should not be allowed. I get that there are some aspects of opinion which differ in regards to some minute details, and we're all welcome to our own opinions, they should all be celebrated. But taking the entire body of ati-yoga and making uninformed blanketed statements regarding it's nature that aim to present yogācāra as it's equal (or greater than) is incorrigible. So the debating isn't meant to degrade or belittle yogācāra, it's purpose is to maintain, fortify, and point out those aspects which separate the two (yogācāra and dzogchen).
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby conebeckham » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mariusz wrote:If one can see my quotes from Vasubandhu and Buddha in this way, of course it is not a big problem. Tsongkhapa and others innovators used to like to see them this way of course.


Tsongkhapa, etc., is not an innovator in the slightest -- the innovators are people like Dolbupa etc., who have invented a Yogacara that never existed in India.


With regard to Yogacara/Cittamatra, I agree. With regard to Madhyamika...well.........not so sure.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:59 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Mariusz wrote:If one can see my quotes from Vasubandhu and Buddha in this way, of course it is not a big problem. Tsongkhapa and others innovators used to like to see them this way of course.


Tsongkhapa, etc., is not an innovator in the slightest -- the innovators are people like Dolbupa etc., who have invented a Yogacara that never existed in India.


With regard to Yogacara/Cittamatra, I agree. With regard to Madhyamika...well.........not so sure.
Tsonkhapa because of His the new Prasangika marginalized Yogacara to this Mind Only interpretation. It is obvious the first. Moreover Malcolm wrote "perfected nature (parinispanna) is the "non-existence" of, which Tsongkhapa can take also as "non inherent existent" according to His Prasangika. It is the second non-obvious.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Jyoti » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:52 am

Sönam wrote:This is a non-argument, it's an opinion, a belieft of a non dzogchen practitioner ... so
listen: "I tell you" once more, for your knowledge and possibly understanding, "in
Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two truths,
trikaya


Simply knowing the body is not dzogchen, but even that would have covered all the basic elements of definitive dharma. However, by knowing vidya, one realized the paramartha, thus the ability to apprehend all dharma, viz. one get to know the dharma due to paramartha and consequently one gained the four non-obstructions with respect to the dharma, the meaning, the words and the speech. If one claimed to practice the dzogchen view but cannot speak properly of dharma, nor understand the scriptures, then the sign of realizing the paramartha is not present.

Bodhicittabhavana by Acarya Sri Manjusrimitra:
"Nevertheless the path is to be approached through studying scriptures (sutra) of the
World-Teacher..."

One of the twenty-one types of conduct taught in the Union of the Sun and Moon Tantra:
"1) As a beginner, using the bee-like conduct of integrating numerous Dharma teachings, you should attain certainty as to learning, reflection and meditation. "

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby muni » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:52 am

One last question (sorry) : What is in nondual nature to compare?

When Jyoti can tell me not to look down on other traditions then I must thank for the important teaching.

Dzogchen is our nature, devoid of self and others, identical spaciousness, all equalizing pure mind is compassion, immutable, uncreated field...
...few word pointings by Dzogchen Masters; Nature.


:bow: Openess for the Masters' Transmission. :bow:

May we all recognize what is not divided.


"Don’t investigate the root of things,
Investigate the root of Mind!
Once the mind’s root has been found,
You’ll know one thing, yet all is thereby freed.
But if the root of Mind you fail to find,
You will know everything but nothing
understand". Guru Rinpoche.

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/dudjom_counsel.htm

ps a nangpa sees no differences out there but only mind. :smile:
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Sönam » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:35 am

Jyoti wrote:
Sönam wrote:This is a non-argument, it's an opinion, a belieft of a non dzogchen practitioner ... so
listen: "I tell you" once more, for your knowledge and possibly understanding, "in
Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two truths,
trikaya


... If one claimed to practice the dzogchen view but cannot speak properly of dharma, nor understand the scriptures, then the sign of realizing the paramartha is not present.
...
Jyoti


I agree ... therefore "in Dzogchen there is no necessity to know the dharma, the three natures, the two truths, trikaya"

As for quote, there is so many quotes to sustain his own view that it is better to rely on his own experience ...

Sönam
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:48 am

A quote from Patrul Rin­poché http://yeshekhorlo.mahajana.net/2012/09/26/the-transmission-lineage-of-dzogchen/:

This is also neces­sary in this vajra essence vehicle, the heart
essence of the Natural Great Per­fec­tion. It is not taught that the
profound truth should be established through the process of
analysis and logic as is done in the lower vehic­les.
Nor is it taught
that com­mon accom­plish­ments should be relied upon in order to
obtain supreme con­sum­mation, as in the lower tan­tras.It is also
not taught that you should emphasize reliance upon the illustrative
wis­dom of the third empower­ment to introduce ultimate
wis­dom, as it is in the higher tan­tras. In the Great Per­fec­tion tradition,
you rely upon prayer made with fervent devotion to the
supremely realized Lama alone, whose lineage is like a gol­den
chain untain­ted by the defilement of broken tan­tric com­mit­ments,
and con­sider him to be an actual Bud­dha. If you sim­ply
pray to him in this way, your mind will merge inseparably with
his wis­dom mind. By the power of the trans­ference of his bles­sings
to you, it is said that realization will arise within you.


Any more questions? :smile:
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby greentreee » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:49 pm

The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: It's Fundamentals and History by Dudjom Rinpoche & Jikdrel Yeshe Dorje
Chapter 8 The Superiority of Atiyoga, the Great Perfection

Thirdly, [following Mahayoga and Anuyoga,] there is the explanation of the definitive order of Atiyoga, the Great Perfection, which is the climax of all vehicles and the culmination of all [paths] to be traversed. This is revealed in two parts: its superiority over the lower [vehicles] and its divisions.

As to the first: This king among vehicles holds the expanse [of reality], the originally pure mind-as-such whose natural expression is inner radiance, and the naturally present, unchanging, pristine cognition that spontaneously abides in oneself to be the ground of great perfection. in the estimation [of atiyoga], the vehicles of the eight lower sequences have intellectually contrived and altered that which is unchanging exclusively through their suddenly arisen ideas which never experience what is in fact so. They have applied an antidote to and abandoned that which is not to be renounced. They have referred to as flawed that in which there is nothing to be clarified, with an intellect which desires clarification. They have induced dissension with respect to that which is not to be obtained by their hopes and doubts that it is to be elsewhere obtained; and they have obscured the pristine cognition, which intrinsically abides, by their strenuous efforts, with respect to that which is effortlessly present. Hence, they have had no occasion to make contact with the reality of the fundamental nature.

In this way, the pious attendants and self centered buddhas among the lower vehicles, with reference to the selflessness which they realize, hold consciousness and atomic matter to be the ultimate realities; and the proponents of consciousness (Vijnanavada) who hold consciousness, self-cognisant and self-reliant in nature, to be the absolute characteristic of ultimate reality, do not transcend [the view of] mind and mental events harbored by mundane beings. The Madhyamaka adhere to a truth of cessation scrutinized by four great axioms and the like, concerning the absence of creation, absence of cessation, absence of being and absence of non-being, which are appraised according to the two truths. And they adhere to an emptiness which is, for example, like the sky, representative of freedom from extremes and freedom from conceptual elaboration and so forth…
(and further down...)
In short, all these sequences [of the vehicle], from anuyoga downwards, are exclusively spiritual and philosophical systems contacted through the intellect. All of them, on the surface of the intellect, produce such thoughts as, "this is non-existent, this (is?) empty and this is true." Apart from this and their convictions and their boasting through ideas and scrutiny that reality lies within the subject - object dichotomy, they do not perceive the abiding nature of the natural state, just as it is.

Accordingly, it is said in the 'Sutra of the Nucleus of the Tathagatha':

The king assembled many blind men and, showing them an elephant, commanded, "Describe its particular characteristics." Those among them who felt the elephant's nose said it resembled an iron hook. Those who felt the eyes said that they resembled bowls. Those who felt the ears said they resembled winnowing baskets. Those who felt the back said it resembled a sedan chair, and those who felt the tail said it resembled a string. Indeed, though they did not describe the elephant as anything else, they were lacking in overall understanding. Similarly, though the nature of the Buddha is diversely described as emptiness, as illusory, as inner radiance and so forth, there is no overall understanding.

These paths have obscured the meaning of the Great Perfection, and if one develops their realizations while abiding in the path of the Great Perfection, it is explained to be a point of deviation (gol-sa). The All Accomplishing King says:

The six vehicles of definitive attainment are taught to be devotion points according to the Great Perfection. If one asks how this is the case, the sutra of the bodhisattva [vehicle] upheld the level of Universal Light. Through ideas and scrutiny concerning the two truths they hold reality to be empty as the sky. The supreme bliss of atiyoga, however, is the enlightened mind transcending ideas and scrutiny. That which transcends ideas and scrutiny is obscured by the sutras. Ideas and scrutiny, according to the Great Perfection, are explained to be the deviation in the sutra.

(and further down)

The Anuyoga upholds indivisibility. Having entered through the expanse and pristine cognition, the things which accordingly appear include the cause, which is the view of pure expanse and the result, which is viewed as the mandala of pristine cognition. The supreme bliss of Atiyoga, however is the enlightened mind transcending cause and result. That which transcends cause and result is obscured by Anuyoga. To behold a duality of cause and result, according to the Great perfection is explained to be the deviation in Anuyoga.

These [sequences of the vehicles] are created and fabricated by the mind, and yet [they hold that] the mind inclusive of the ideas they present in all eight aggregates [of consciousness] is a stain to be rejected. This natural Great Perfection, on the other hand, refers to mind-as-such transcending the mind, the uncompounded inner radiance of pristine cognition which is the natural presence of awareness, in which all the enlightened attributes of fundamental nature are spontaneously present. Apart from that, its essential point is that the abiding nature, characterized in the manner of the sky as unchanging, does not need to refer to causes and results that are either to be created or are in the process of creation, or to extraneous conditions and such elements, because it is naturally free from them. Thereby, [the Great Perfection] teaches that the nature of the Primordial Lord, Samantabhadra, is the buddhahood attained without contrivance, by realizing in one's own nature the naturally present pristine cognition, and that it does not otherwise emerge through extraneous conditions such as study, reflection and the accumulations of compounded provisions.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:35 pm

Mariusz wrote:With regard to Madhyamika...well.........not so sure.
Tsonkhapa because of His the new Prasangika marginalized Yogacara to this Mind Only interpretation. [/quote]

This statement simply ignores and betrays ignorance of the entire history of tenet system literature in India as well as Tibet.

Yogacara was considered "mind only" in Tibet from the eighth century. I suggest you learn Tibetan and read Kawa Paltseg's treatise on tenet systems, not to mention Shantaraksita's Tattvasamgraha which is in English, which negates Yogacara as mind-only and so on.

It was only after the 14th century that a rennovated "Yogacara" was presented by some Tibetan scholars such as Dolbupa, etc. Prior to this, in general, Tibetans in general considered Yogacara "cittamatra". I can provide numerous examples going back to the 8th century.

M
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
This statement simply ignores and betrays ignorance of the entire history of tenet system literature in India as well as Tibet.

M

I've already read english books which I always quoted here. Of course I will be happy If you again present some new quotes in question. Thanx
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:25 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
This statement simply ignores and betrays ignorance of the entire history of tenet system literature in India as well as Tibet.

M

I've already read english books which I always quoted here. Of course I will be happy If you again present some new quotes in question. Thanx



Yes, you have read books influenced completely by a post-14th century read on Indian Tenet systems.

For example, the eleventh century Nyingam scholar, Rongzom Chozang, writes in his seminal intro to Mahayāna systems:

    When the Yogacara assert the characteristic of emptiness of dualistic false conceptualities, emptiness is not asserted to be anything other than the other dependent.

Or:

    Also in the system of the Yogacāra, the mind and mental factors of the three realms, the characteristic of the falsely imagined is not an object and also is not a subject, [6/a] but a tenet system of being the characteristic of a mere self-reflexive cognition empty of both [subject and object] is asserted.

And then he includes a paraphrase from Asanga's Mahayānasaṃgraha to support his assertion.

Or, when summarizing their final view:

    When the [Yogacāra] tenets are summarized, all [schools of Yogacāra] claim “Non-conceptual primordial wisdom possessing the suchness of being empty of duality substantially exists as ultimate.

Thus, your claim that Tsongkhapa was the first to marginalize Yogacāra as cittamatra is shown to be unfounded. Also Sakya Pandita demonstrates the same thing as Rongzom.


Or Kawa Paltseg's lta ba'i rim pa bshad pa, written in the later 8th or early 9th century places Vijñaptimatra [i.e. Yogacāra/Cittamatra] below Madhyamaka:

    The vehicle of characteristics has three divisions:
    Vijñaptimatra; Yogacara
    and Sautrantika Madhyamaka.
    The Vijñaptimatrins assert that [the appearance of] a man of [a misperceived] cairn
    does not exist like bamboo horse,
    the deluded appearance of one's own consciousness;
    assert that the ultimate is a moment of wisdom;
    and are in accord with Yogacāra Mādhyamika [in terms of] the relative.
    [But Mādhyamikas] assert the ultimate as non-arisen emptiness,
    and the Sautrantika [Mādhyamikas] assert the relative as mere illusion,
    seen as appearing from the perspective of the object.
    Since it is sublime, freedom from the two extremes
    is asserted to be great Madhyamaka.


Now, the difference between Yogacara Madhyamaka, formulated by Shantaraksita and so called Sautrantika Madhyamaka (meaning Buddhapalita, Bhavaveka, etc.) was well known at this time. But Yogacara itself was considered inferior to Madhyamaka, and Yogacara, Vijñaptimatra and Cittamatra were all considered syonyms in Tibet up until the time Dolbupa.

This text, incidentally, gives the first appearance of the term "dbu ma chen po" that we know of.

So it is just wrong to claim that Tsongkhapa was the one who "margianalizes" Yogacara as cittamatra.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Malcolm
 
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby muni » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:56 pm

Jyoti wrote:[
You can't compare the definitive dharma with a recipe that has variety, only the
provisional dharma has variety to cater for different requirement of the vessels.
Jyoti


This seems to mean for me: We need spectacles to see clear, we need them in a way to clear up our own perception.
May we, all beings have the glasses we need and see all as clear.

:anjali:
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