Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

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Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:41 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tiger wrote:
"Guru" and "practice" are causes here, and "self-emergence" is result.

:rolling:


lol so you think that adding together a guru plus practice produces buddhahood? Because that is the absurd statement your words are conveying here. Maybe you want to rethink this angle...



It is logic 101.

Without a Guru you cannot practice Dzogchen to attain Buddhahood - according to Dzogchen of course - so that makes "Guru" a necessary "Cause" for attaining Buddhahood.

And then claiming that the Buddhahood of Dzogchen is "self-emergent" or "spontaneous" and "beyond cause and effect", you contradict the first statement because a Guru's empowerment was logically concluded to be a necessary requirement in your sect. Either the requirement for Guru is indispensable for your goal (and your realization is NON-spontaneous) OR your vehicle leads to the arousal of "Buddhahood" spontaneously. It cannot be both at the same time.


And I am pretty sure your experience of "realization" conferred to you by your Guru must have been a profound experience, but you are being closed-minded in thinking that (i)it was THE most profound experience (ii)Only Yogic Dzogchen masters can make you enter states of mind through their power of the mind. If you explore more possibilities, you will see that many realized beings can give you profound experiences. Some Hindu, Taoists, Hinayanists etc.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:46 am

Samsara is characterized by cause and effect. So living in samsara, how can one rely on the methods that are beyond cause and effect? In Samsara, according to my understand, being practice Dharma, to attain a goal. So the goal and practice are causally related. In what way, then, is Dzogchen, beyond cause and effect since its requirement of "causes" also includes a Guru's empowerment along with the standard "causes" of Sutra methods?
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:34 pm

There is a sense in dzogchen of non-achievement. This is an important point. Also the teacher is more like an expression of the natural condition. So the situation is something a little different from normal.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:55 pm

Ha!!! Even for a Centrist (a madhyamika) there is never need of "production" of what was never in the first place. "Cause and effect" works only from deceiving perspective of sentient beings as merely a "antidote, medicine" used by a madhyamika in order to cure them: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html Appendix 2. No need for dzogchen here.

Considering Dzogchen is the same principle: The lineage of Dzogchen Gurus works only from perspective of practitioners of dzogchen in order to realize fully Rigpa for them, it does not work for others. To be a Yogacara is not enough in order to realize Rigpa, not to mention Hindu or Taoist.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:34 pm

Tiger wrote:And then claiming that the Buddhahood of Dzogchen is "self-emergent" or "spontaneous" and "beyond cause and effect", you contradict the first statement because a Guru's empowerment was logically concluded to be a necessary requirement in your sect. Either the requirement for Guru is indispensable for your goal (and your realization is NON-spontaneous) OR your vehicle leads to the arousal of "Buddhahood" spontaneously. It cannot be both at the same time.



Buddhahood in Dzogchen is analgous to picking fruit off of a tree. You need a Guru to show you where the tree is and that the fruit is there to be picked. You need do nothing to grow the fruit, however -- it is just hanging there to be picked.

M
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:42 pm

:namaste:

Many excellent comments.


Song of the happy rabbit.

It is logic 101.

Without a Guru you cannot practice Dzogchen to attain Buddhahood - according to Dzogchen of course - so that makes "Guru" a necessary "Cause" for attaining Buddhahood.

Logic 100. :smile: If your Guru is your own realized Thathagatagharba, Buddha seed, dwelling beyond time or any characteristic whatsoever, (including those of you, Guru, Buddha, seed, dwelling, time and characteristic, etc) then from THAT (ness) it is also beyond any "cause" for obtaining Buddha-hood, or "Buddhahood" to be obtained.

And then claiming that the Buddhahood of Dzogchen is "self-emergent" or "spontaneous" and "beyond cause and effect", you contradict the first statement because a Guru's empowerment was logically concluded to be a necessary requirement in your sect. Either the requirement for Guru is indispensable for your goal (and your realization is NON-spontaneous) OR your vehicle leads to the arousal of "Buddhahood" spontaneously. It cannot be both at the same time.

Logic 99. :smile: also beyond: "Dzogchen"; "self emergent"; "beyond cause and effect"; spontaneously realized"; gradually realized"; "logic" (that is the hardest to let go, for some); and the all inclusive "ETC."

And I am pretty sure your experience of "realization" conferred to you by your Guru must have been a profound experience, but you are being closed-minded in thinking that (i)it was THE most profound experience (ii)Only Yogic Dzogchen masters can make you enter states of mind through their power of the mind. If you explore more possibilities, you will see that many realized beings can give you profound experiences. Some Hindu, Taoists, Hinayanists etc.[/quote]

Logic 98. :smile: I do not think of the experiences of pointing out instructions. Not one thought - ever. Couldn't if I wanted to.

Logic 97. :smile: I also do not have any thought as to whether taking pointing out instructions from a "Dzogchen Master" is the only way to enter Dzogchen / instant presence.

That said, perhaps finding a Dzogchen Master, and taking pointing out instructions, is the easiest way to enter Dzogchen / instant presence.

:bow: :bow: :bow: to all and ALL realized Masters of all faiths and religions who are beyond any differentiating qualities / views, what-so-ever.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long , in good health and with success in all things.


:heart:
Last edited by oldbob on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oushi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:53 pm

Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Depends on what "beyond" means.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:Buddhahood in Dzogchen is analgous to picking fruit off of a tree. You need a Guru to show you where the tree is and that the fruit is there to be picked. You need do nothing to grow the fruit, however -- it is just hanging there to be picked.

M


:thumbsup:

Dzogchen toddler here: I'm enough of a path of transformation guy to believe that all these words are very pretty much all correct. But practically - I still need the guru. It's called guruyoga for a reason. Guruyoga white A leads naturally to four yogas of Semde which in turn lead naturally to katak trekcho. But they are all from the guru. This is why they are all true vajrayana practices. I get the truth, the deva, from the guru. I need to put that truth inside of me, which makes me a dakini. I can't make up my own realization I need the rocket fuel from the outside source.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:17 pm

oushi wrote:
Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Depends on what "beyond" means.



Ya oushi, I think maybe we need to say also beyond, "beyond" - then maybe we don't have to worry about what beyond means. :smile:

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oushi » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:21 pm

oldbob wrote:Ya oushi, I think maybe we need to say also beyond, "beyond" - then maybe we don't have to worry about what beyond means. :smile:

And what Dzogchen is, or isn't.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oldbob » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:27 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Buddhahood in Dzogchen is analgous to picking fruit off of a tree. You need a Guru to show you where the tree is and that the fruit is there to be picked. You need do nothing to grow the fruit, however -- it is just hanging there to be picked.

M


:thumbsup:

Dzogchen toddler here: I'm enough of a path of transformation guy to believe that all these words are very pretty much all correct. But practically - I still need the guru. It's called guruyoga for a reason. Guruyoga white A leads naturally to four yogas of Semde which in turn lead naturally to katak trekcho. But they are all from the guru. This is why they are all true vajrayana practices. I get the truth, the deva, from the guru. I need to put that truth inside of me, which makes me a dakini. I can't make up my own realization I need the rocket fuel from the outside source.


:good:

Yup!

Maybe we are all Dzogchen toddlers until we become Dzogchen Masters.

Hence, I am always praying:

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long, in good health, and with success in all things.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:31 pm

See this post by Pema Rigdzin:

Dzogchen and Buddhism
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Jyoti » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:51 am

Whether in Dzogchen or common mahayana, only the body (ground) is beyond cause and effect, since both the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object) are unrelated to it. However, the bodhi is not on the side of the body but on the side of means (jnana), and it is responsive to the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object).

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:01 am

Jyoti wrote:Whether in Dzogchen or common mahayana, only the body (ground) is beyond cause and effect, since both the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object) are unrelated to it. However, the bodhi is not on the side of the body but on the side of means (jnana), and it is responsive to the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object).

Jyoti


In Dzogchen, there is not this duality between emptiness and display/means. Neither for explanatory purposes or practice-wise. Dzogchen does not even bother considering them separately but rather presents them at all times as inseparable as water and its wetness. Even on the level of Madhyamaka, it is understood that since no phenomena whatsoever can be found that are actually established, neither can any agent, action, or result be established. I.E. cause and result are illusory. Dzogchen just takes it a step further, beyond the realm of intellectual analysis, and introduces this inseparability of emptiness and natural formation experientially. It is understood in Dzogchen, of course, that on the level of deluded experience, there will still be the experience of subject and object and thus cause and effect until one's realization has overcome that ignorance, but from the very start of Dzogchen one goes to the heart of dissolving that deluded notion experientially, from the inside out.

In other words, while sutra acknowledges that Buddhas know the absolute and relative levels simultaneously, they assert that ordinary sentient beings can't possibly do that, so they explain relative and absolute separately and one meditates on them as separate as well. But Dzogchen introduces them at all times as inseparable, and Dzogchen "practice" involves knowing them that way too.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Mariusz » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:24 am

Jyoti wrote:..in ..common mahayana, only the body (ground) is beyond cause and effect, since both the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object) are unrelated to it. However, the bodhi is not on the side of the body but on the side of means (jnana), and it is responsive to the perfuming (subject) and perfumed (object).

Jyoti
Jyoti, you are using completely different terminology as i see. Have you read for example http://books.google.pl/books/about/The_Center_of_the_Sunlit_Sky.html?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&redir_esc=y ? Perhaps help you to investigate the topic from POV of little more tibetan source.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:28 pm

Cleaned the thread. Please stay on-topic. Discussion of Yogacara can be done in the appropriate thread in the Dzogchen section.
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:36 pm

Posted this quote before, but it's relevant to this topic, and a good quote...

"The pure mind, the ubiquitous essence -
it is spontaneously, originally, perfect;
so strenuous engagement with the ten techniques
is unnecessary, superfluous.

...I am inscrutable and cannot be cultivated.
All the ten techniques are likewise transcended,
so nothing can be done to affect me.
Those who try to approach me on a causal path,
desirous of catching a glimpse of my face,
seeking me through the ten techniques,
fall straight to earth like a tenderfoot sky-walker,
tumbling down due to deliberate effort.

I, the supreme source, I am the revelation,
and transcend every sphere of activity,
so a view of me cannot be cultivated,
and the ten techniques are meaningless.
If you still think that the ten techniques have purpose,
look at me, and finding nothing to see,
taking no view, remain at that zero-point.
Nothing ever separates us from unoriginated simplicity,
so vows and discipline are redundant;
the essence is always spontaneously present,
so any effort to find it is always superfluous;
self-sprung awareness has never been obscured,
so gnostic awareness cannot be generated;
everybody already lives on my level,
so there is no place to reach through purification;
I embrace all and everything,
so there can be no path that leads to me;
I am forever incapable of dualization,
so there is never anything to be labeled 'subtle';
my form embraces everything,
so there has never been any 'duality';
I am self-sprung awareness from the very beginning,
so I can never be nailed down;
since I am the heart of total presence,
there is no other source of secret precepts."
- Samantabhadra
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby heart » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:36 am

Tiger wrote:Samsara is characterized by cause and effect. So living in samsara, how can one rely on the methods that are beyond cause and effect? In Samsara, according to my understand, being practice Dharma, to attain a goal. So the goal and practice are causally related. In what way, then, is Dzogchen, beyond cause and effect since its requirement of "causes" also includes a Guru's empowerment along with the standard "causes" of Sutra methods?


"To Have a Decisive Understanding About the True Nature
Mahamudra has no causes.
Mahamudra has no conditions.
Mahamudra has no methods.
Mahamudra has no path.
Mahamudra has no result.

The Introduction to the Fundamental Character
"Mahamudra has no causes," and yet faith and devotion are the causes of mahamudra.
"Mahamudra has no conditions," and yet genuine gurus are the conditions for mahamudra.
"Mahamudra has no methods," and yet uncontrived mind is the method of mahamudra.
"Mahamudra has no path," and yet undistracted mind is the path of mahamudra.
"Mahamudra has no result," and yet the mind liberated into dharmata is the result of mahamudra."

Gampopa

I would say this would be valid for Dzogchen also.

/magnus
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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby Virgo » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:42 am

Dzogchen is beyond 'beyond', because where it's at, yond doesn't exist.

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Re: Is Dzogchen really beyond cause and effect?

Postby oushi » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:16 am

Virgo wrote:Dzogchen is beyond 'beyond', because where it's at, yond doesn't exist.

Kevin

And what does "exist" mean? The game of questions and answers is pointless, like juggling without balls. We ask about one ball, and the answer is build from relations to other balls. Where are those balls? Nowhere to be found, but relations are infinite.
There is no answer for the question what Dzogchen is.
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