Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Thus-gone » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:16 pm

Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


Shimano did not simply have sex with people - he used his influence to manipulate particularly sensitive people, ultimately putting a number of them in mental hospitals. He's a rapist. Is that too kind? Are you saying that it's A-OK in Japan for teachers to rape their students?

America is not a very puritan society, if you were unaware - especially compared to Japan...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:00 pm

I recall reading an interview (http://sweepingzen.com/shinge-roko-sherry-chayat-interview) at the Sweeping Zen website with Shinge Roko Sherry Chayat where she talks about this. She writes:
In fact there are a lot of students these days who are angry at the board for keeping Eido roshi from any contact with the Zen Studies Society sangha. Many are European or Japanese, and they think Americans are ridiculously puritanical.


Does it strike anyone else as odd to separate morals and culture?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby floating_abu » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:29 pm

"Is Eido's lineage legitimate?"

The short answer is NOT RECOMMENDED - look elsewhere for a responsible and credible Buddhist organisation.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:19 am

Mr. G wrote:
Read Brian Victoria's "Zen at War".


Yes I read it, so what?[/quote]

So now you see that personality cults exist in Japan, and in Zen lineages.[/quote]

Well this is only one book, written by individual who rather has problems with comprehending what zen practice requires. On the other hand he keeps strong anti-Japanese approach, and went through many omissions in his quotes giving impression he wanted to give. it is ok for me, he has an agenda and does what he does to reach his goal, but it is only ONE book... I guess it is better to check for oneself the real situation in Japan, then one may avoid mistakes. Anyway his claims are false.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:30 am

[/quote]

It is not really relevant if I possess it or not, what is important is if we really understand what does it mean to study zen with a master... personal attacks are just personal attack and do not answer the issue, if Shimano lineage is legitimate or not.[/quote]
I thought you might not consider being attributed with a lack of that which produces rather questionable results a personal attack. I was wrong and I apologize. It seems that you believe common sense is a positive attribute after all.

Shimano's lineage seems to be as legitimate as any other of it's kind. He would need to be disrobed (or whatever the correct term or protocol is) in order to become illegitimate.[/quote]

Well nobody can disrobe him, at least not in this lineage of ordination since it is special ordination which is somehow continued even after death, actually until reaching 3 kayas fully. And whether he broke his vows or not - it does not matter. Not in the sense that there is no retribution of course...

There is an interesting thing to this question of legitimate. First of course the Dharma transmission should be ''legitimate''... but it is not obligatory to follow it. If there is no affinity, then there is no need to follow. If there is an affinity, one may follow even demon from hell if he is able to show the path to liberation and enlightenment. One may encounter ''holly and legitimate'' master, but having no affinity may miss the point altogether. Whether holly or sinner if the master has dharma and became a skillful vessel, he or she may liberate anyone who possesses the affinity with him or her.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:38 am

Thus-gone wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


Shimano did not simply have sex with people - he used his influence to manipulate particularly sensitive people, ultimately putting a number of them in mental hospitals. He's a rapist. Is that too kind? Are you saying that it's A-OK in Japan for teachers to rape their students?

America is not a very puritan society, if you were unaware - especially compared to Japan...


If those accusations are true, then I wonder why he is not jailed? There is no police force in the USA, or they closed courts? As I wrote before if anyone thinks he is a criminal, just jail him. If not, are you able to withstand a legal responsibility for what you write? Are you a victim of his rape? Just wonder... or did you witness those manipulations and seen the victims in their miserable state of being? or is it just what you have read and heard from others?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:45 am

shel wrote:I recall reading an interview (http://sweepingzen.com/shinge-roko-sherry-chayat-interview) at the Sweeping Zen website with Shinge Roko Sherry Chayat where she talks about this. She writes:
In fact there are a lot of students these days who are angry at the board for keeping Eido roshi from any contact with the Zen Studies Society sangha. Many are European or Japanese, and they think Americans are ridiculously puritanical.


Does it strike anyone else as odd to separate morals and culture?


Definitely different cultures have different morals... it is also used to make war, because if there will be any culture with different morals then ''ours'', then finally it will be unacceptable and unbearable... isn't it? it is how the ''superiority'' complex appears...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:57 am

floating_abu wrote:"Is Eido's lineage legitimate?"

The short answer is NOT RECOMMENDED - look elsewhere for a responsible and credible Buddhist organisation.


This stroke me most... not for the opinion, but general approach people may have.. in the first place question is tricky, just a little bit. But can produce many mistakes. How are we going to measure if teacher or lineage is legitimate or not? how??? There is no way in fact... for the zen practice requires complete devotion. Complete 100%... if there is no devotion no commitment like this, then the lineage or teacher is ''not-legitimate'' from the subjective point of view... if one has faith, devotion and mental defilements are not billowing in ones head, then the lineage or teacher is subjectively ''legitimate''... to put everything in the shadows of legitimate and illegitimate produces only more delusion, since it has practically no application in zen practice, which is based solely on the affinity, subjective feeling of faith and devotion to other human being one believes is enlightened and possesses special qualities, which one cannot find in others. So to judge publicly if he, she or they are legitimate or illegitimate is laughable. Or childish, well, stupid... the only answer is GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF...

But hen when one sees, but has too much prejudice, thoughts, disbelieve etc. one will not be able to follow, practice or whatever. If we decide that there is a LEGITIMATE place, organization etc. and one will go there with trust, lacking own judgments, since it is said to be LEGITIMATE, one may be another victim of ones own immaturity and believing others concerning what is LEGITIMATE and what is not LEGITIMATE. One has to see for oneself. In zen.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Astus » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:47 am

Matylda wrote:One has to see for oneself. In zen.


Indeed. Same thing the Buddha said.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:59 pm

Matylda wrote:If there is an affinity, one may follow even demon from hell if he is able to show the path to liberation and enlightenment. One may encounter ''holly and legitimate'' master, but having no affinity may miss the point altogether. Whether holly or sinner if the master has dharma and became a skillful vessel, he or she may liberate anyone who possesses the affinity with him or her.

And these enlightened demons could produce more enlightened demons with whom they find affinity, until the world is full of enlightened demons. Oh joy.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Matylda wrote:One has to see for oneself. In zen.


Some of Shimano's students did see for themselves...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Matylda wrote:Definitely different cultures have different morals...


In the wise words of Saint Ambrose, "when in Rome do as the Romans do."
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby floating_abu » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:44 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:One has to see for oneself. In zen.


Indeed. Same thing the Buddha said.


Sorry, Astus, the Buddha was talking about the Dharma teachings -- not places of sexual abuse, manipulation and financial irresponsibility.

Best not to confuse seekers, especially vulnerable seekers.

Best wishes,

Abu
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby floating_abu » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:52 pm

Matylda wrote:There is no way in fact... for the zen practice requires complete devotion. Complete 100%... if there is no devotion no commitment like this, then the lineage or teacher is ''not-legitimate'' from the subjective point of view... if one has faith, devotion and mental defilements are not billowing in ones head, then the lineage or teacher is subjectively ''legitimate''... to put everything in the shadows of legitimate and illegitimate produces only more delusion, since it has practically no application in zen practice, which is based solely on the affinity, subjective feeling of faith and devotion to other human being one believes is enlightened and possesses special qualities, which one cannot find in others. So to judge publicly if he, she or they are legitimate or illegitimate is laughable. Or childish, well, stupid... the only answer is GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF...

But hen when one sees, but has too much prejudice, thoughts, disbelieve etc. one will not be able to follow, practice or whatever. If we decide that there is a LEGITIMATE place, organization etc. and one will go there with trust, lacking own judgments, since it is said to be LEGITIMATE, one may be another victim of ones own immaturity and believing others concerning what is LEGITIMATE and what is not LEGITIMATE. One has to see for oneself. In zen.


And again -- no. Buddhism, let alone Zen Buddhism, does not require anyone to go to a person and lineage of more than questionable, and potentially criminal, background. Including, but not limited to, rape, financial abuse, manipulation and trauma, as has been recorded and reported on numerous occasions.

This is enough to steer away any well intentioned seeker. It is enough to say -- please stay away.

The records are on file, as is a statement by his own student on Sweeping Zen.

You are free of course to defend and bow at this man's feet, but please do not disguise it as Buddhism or Buddhist advice.

Or to say that legitimacy of one to teach/instruct in Dharma is dependent on the subject's willingness to throw one's own care out the window.

There will always be two sides to the coin. For most teachers of good standing and genuine practice, yes, we necessarily submit a bit in recognition of their intentions and kindness and our wish to learn in the Dhamma's ways - but not to those who are clearly shown to have performed unambiguously harmful acts over many many years, and now condoned by the same organisation.

Steer clear.

There are still many good teachers out there.

Best wishes,
Abu
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Astus » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:42 pm

floating_abu wrote:Sorry, Astus, the Buddha was talking about the Dharma teachings -- not places of sexual abuse, manipulation and financial irresponsibility.


My agreement was with the point of personal investigation. And I referred to this teaching: AN 4.192.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:55 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:If there is an affinity, one may follow even demon from hell if he is able to show the path to liberation and enlightenment. One may encounter ''holly and legitimate'' master, but having no affinity may miss the point altogether. Whether holly or sinner if the master has dharma and became a skillful vessel, he or she may liberate anyone who possesses the affinity with him or her.

And these enlightened demons could produce more enlightened demons with whom they find affinity, until the world is full of enlightened demons. Oh joy.


Well I do not know your background or your knowledge of zen, but what you say shows clearly that you were misinformed somehow. If you do not know what is the purpose of zen path, and the aim of enlightenment, then there is no reason at all to get engaged in this path. What for? If you wish to defend any common principles, common sense, keep the fear of demons etc. then just give up zen, since it will always contradict such approach...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:57 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:One has to see for oneself. In zen.


Some of Shimano's students did see for themselves...



Did you also see it for yourself? Even if others did see, if they really did, do you follow others fears, frustrations and judgments?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:08 pm

floating_abu wrote:
And again -- no. Buddhism, let alone Zen Buddhism, does not require anyone to go to a person and lineage of more than questionable, and potentially criminal, background. Including, but not limited to, rape, financial abuse, manipulation and trauma, as has been recorded and reported on numerous occasions.

This is enough to steer away any well intentioned seeker. It is enough to say -- please stay away.

The records are on file, as is a statement by his own student on Sweeping Zen.

You are free of course to defend and bow at this man's feet, but please do not disguise it as Buddhism or Buddhist advice.

Or to say that legitimacy of one to teach/instruct in Dharma is dependent on the subject's willingness to throw one's own care out the window.

There will always be two sides to the coin. For most teachers of good standing and genuine practice, yes, we necessarily submit a bit in recognition of their intentions and kindness and our wish to learn in the Dhamma's ways - but not to those who are clearly shown to have performed unambiguously harmful acts over many many years, and now condoned by the same organisation.

Steer clear.

There are still many good teachers out there.

Best wishes,
Abu


Do you say this from Theravadin point of view? If so then the misunderstanding will only grow and you will throw opinions at random...

Another thing, if you say ''potentially criminal'' etc. then why is he still free? not jailed? and did not get any sentence from the judge for his criminal offences? why??? This I cannot understand and repeat the question.. why is he still free and not jailed?

From the legal point of view, you and others put so heavy accusations, that actually prosecutor should read this forum and start investigation without receiving any complaint against him, right? If those were truly criminal offences.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:14 am

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:If there is an affinity, one may follow even demon from hell if he is able to show the path to liberation and enlightenment. One may encounter ''holly and legitimate'' master, but having no affinity may miss the point altogether. Whether holly or sinner if the master has dharma and became a skillful vessel, he or she may liberate anyone who possesses the affinity with him or her.

And these enlightened demons could produce more enlightened demons with whom they find affinity, until the world is full of enlightened demons. Oh joy.


Well I do not know your background or your knowledge of zen, but what you say shows clearly that you were misinformed somehow. If you do not know what is the purpose of zen path, and the aim of enlightenment, then there is no reason at all to get engaged in this path. What for? If you wish to defend any common principles, common sense, keep the fear of demons etc. then just give up zen, since it will always contradict such approach...


I have no fear of demons, at least no fear of the sort we're talking about. It's highly unlikely I would ever be a victim of such a creature. And we seem to have established you also value common sense.

I'd simply rather not live in a world filled with demons, enlightened or not.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:26 am

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:One has to see for oneself. In zen.


Some of Shimano's students did see for themselves...


Did you also see it for yourself? Even if others did see, if they really did, do you follow others fears, frustrations and judgments?


There's over four decades worth of documentation, from various witnesses. It would be idiotic to discount that evidence and see for myself.

However, even his harshest critics say he's the real McCoy as far as realization and teaching Zen. To me, that only speaks to what realization and Zen means today, which is to say that it is rather meaningless.
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