Free Speech & Islam

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Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:55 pm

A French periodical has taken a courageous and needed tact. They published unflattering cartoons of Mohamet, in spite of the govt. asking them not to do it.

It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Mr. G » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:28 pm

Will wrote:It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:43 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Will wrote:It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:


"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby catmoon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:59 pm

it is surely true that to Muslim eyes, those who scoff at the Prophet, his teachings and followers are the barbarians.

Interesting concept, this "barbarianism".
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:33 pm

catmoon wrote:it is surely true that to Muslim eyes, those who scoff at the Prophet, his teachings and followers are the barbarians.

Interesting concept, this "barbarianism".


What term would you apply to those who murder homosexuals, women who stray from their 'place', Muslims who convert to some other religion, critics or scoffers at Islam or Mohamet - etcetera?

"Uncultured or brutish" says the dictionary, (a slur on animals of course.) I say "uncultured or demonic".
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:00 am

How does ridiculing Muhammad Prophet of Islam address the issue of fanaticism within the religion? That's similar to someone making cartoons making fun of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a response to the behavior of NKT or 'Diamond Way'. Or like making fun of Jesus in response to the fanaticism of Southern Baptists.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they did, but I definitely wouldn't encourage it.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Indrajala » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:35 am

My friend from Morocco (who is pretty critical of everyone) had this to say about the ongoing protests:

they dont understand

the idea that someone can make a movie on his own, without some form of permission from the state, is science fiction in most countries

and then they also dont accept the idea that free speech applies on their sacred stuff too

and contrary to the idea u seem to have, a lot of those protesters are educated, and not necessarily part of the illiterate masses

at least here and in tunisia too probably

maybe also egypt

decades of brainwashing

their world view is so screwed up, they think the whole planet is conspiring against them, even educated ones
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:21 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:How does ridiculing Muhammad Prophet of Islam address the issue of fanaticism within the religion? That's similar to someone making cartoons making fun of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a response to the behavior of NKT or 'Diamond Way'. Or like making fun of Jesus in response to the fanaticism of Southern Baptists.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they did, but I definitely wouldn't encourage it.


I prefer to encourage freedom of speech & thought. Capitulation to thugs, religious or otherwise, causes more problems than it solves.

There is strong element in Islam that wants to take over the world for Allah anyway. So the more fear they see in non-Muslims, the stronger they feel, since it is Allah's will being imposed - which is just dandy with these religious totalitarians.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Jikan » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 am

Will wrote:"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Jikan » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:39 am

This is a worthwhile reflection:

The definition

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8
Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."


this and more at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:41 am

Theosophy says that "All Religions are precious pearls strung on the golden thread of Divinity". This being said, my main point is: Why not ridicule fanaticism itself within the religion, instead making fun of Islam's Prophet.

Zionism is still scarier than "Islamic" fanaticism overall. At least Muslims don't control usury-style international-banking and bulldoze people's homes. I wouldn't be surprised if many fanatical "Islamic" groups are Zionist-backed.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:55 am

Jikan wrote:
Will wrote:"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.


That is your priority, a barbarism census within Islam? Go to it, why not start the census and report back after studying whatever data you like.

I prefer to face the fact that Islamic murderers & assassins are a danger to world peace (ah remember that meme) and will not be satisfied with anything less than 'surrender' (which is what Allah demands).

The Kalacakra prophecy is unfolding slowly and at some point this barbaric, totalitarian movement must be opposed with thoughts, words and deeds. Now is as good a time as any.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Jikan » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:59 am

Will wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Will wrote:"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.


That is your priority, a barbarism census within Islam? Go to it, why not start the census and report back after studying whatever data you like.

I prefer to face the fact that Islamic murderers & assassins are a danger to world peace (ah remember that meme) and will not be satisfied with anything less than 'surrender' (which is what Allah demands).


You made the claim that there are millions of barbarians in Islam, not me, so the burden of proof is on you. I'm suggesting that if you lack such proof, your statement lacks truthfulness (you are speaking from stereotype and not fact), and hence, it is not right speech.

I think your comments in this thread are divisive and ill-informed. They would be more convincing if you started from a position of fact rather than invective and hyperbole.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Jikan » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:01 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Zionism is still scarier than "Islamic" fanaticism overall. At least Muslims don't control usury-style international-banking and bulldoze people's homes. I wouldn't be surprised if many fanatical "Islamic" groups are Zionist-backed.


Big claim. Do you have any evidence at all that there is some cabal of Jewish moneylenders controlling global finance?
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby plwk » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:19 am

It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:

Are we forgetting how the Thais and Burmese used to slaughter each other and ravage & burn down each other's Viharas? Are we forgetting how certain powerful sects see it fit to suppress another? I could go on but these are enough for now...

Oh and Will, it's my poor opinion that each nation's media outlet could do better highlighting causes of social justice for the poor and marginalised and push for reforms to benefit all ranks in their respective societies than engage in pages of circus stunts...
Last edited by plwk on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:22 am

Good grief. All kinds of irony meters going off in this thread. How sad.

:zzz:
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Mr. G » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:23 am

plwk wrote:
It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:

Are we forgetting how the Thais and Burmese used to slaughter each other and ravage & burn down each other's Viharas? Are we forgetting how certain powerful sects see it fit to suppress another? I could go on but these are enough for now...


My comment was sarcastic, which is why I used this smiley: :roll:
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby Will » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:20 am

So far, the responses are not interesting, just predictable - denial, debate or divert. :zzz:

If anyone has thoughts about the thread topic - what to do or not do, about the Western fear-based, voluntary suppression of critical speech regarding Islam - please chime in.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby viniketa » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:37 am

Will wrote:If anyone has thoughts about the thread topic - what to do or not do, about the Western fear-based, voluntary suppression of critical speech regarding Islam - please chime in.


Can something be both "fear-based" and "voluntary"?

One solution might be to require anyone who wants to write about Islam or Muslims, in newspapers or on the Internet, to thoroughly investigate the situation first-hand by living as a practicing Muslim for a year before being allowed to draw conclusions and writing about them.

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Free Speech & Islam

Postby catmoon » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:40 am

Free speech is like a license to drive a car, or to own a gun. Like the car and the gun, freedom of speech can be abused. Buddhism imposes strong restraints on free speech, in the form of the doctrines of Right Speech. In a topic as sensitive as this one, it is a duty of each writer to check his material against the principles laid out in the sutras before posting. Parts of those sutras have already been laid out here, in this very thread.

From the Dhammapada:

"He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who brood on this, hostility isn't stilled. "He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. (Verses 3-5) Translator: Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Those who wish to simply list the perceived sins of Islam against them will get no encouragement from me. Indeed, if the current hostile climate does not change in this thread, I'm quite likely to shut it down on the basis that it is harmful to all concerned. Further, a hostile thread runs directly counter to the ToS, section 1.
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