Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:51 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:55 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
A French periodical has taken a courageous and needed tact. They published unflattering cartoons of Mohamet, in spite of the govt. asking them not to do it.

It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 4027
Location: Spaceship Earth
Will wrote:
It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:

_________________
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:43 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
Mr. G wrote:
Will wrote:
It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:


"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:59 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Posts: 2995
Location: British Columbia
it is surely true that to Muslim eyes, those who scoff at the Prophet, his teachings and followers are the barbarians.

Interesting concept, this "barbarianism".

_________________
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:33 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
catmoon wrote:
it is surely true that to Muslim eyes, those who scoff at the Prophet, his teachings and followers are the barbarians.

Interesting concept, this "barbarianism".


What term would you apply to those who murder homosexuals, women who stray from their 'place', Muslims who convert to some other religion, critics or scoffers at Islam or Mohamet - etcetera?

"Uncultured or brutish" says the dictionary, (a slur on animals of course.) I say "uncultured or demonic".

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
How does ridiculing Muhammad Prophet of Islam address the issue of fanaticism within the religion? That's similar to someone making cartoons making fun of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a response to the behavior of NKT or 'Diamond Way'. Or like making fun of Jesus in response to the fanaticism of Southern Baptists.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they did, but I definitely wouldn't encourage it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
My friend from Morocco (who is pretty critical of everyone) had this to say about the ongoing protests:

Quote:
they dont understand

the idea that someone can make a movie on his own, without some form of permission from the state, is science fiction in most countries

and then they also dont accept the idea that free speech applies on their sacred stuff too

and contrary to the idea u seem to have, a lot of those protesters are educated, and not necessarily part of the illiterate masses

at least here and in tunisia too probably

maybe also egypt

decades of brainwashing

their world view is so screwed up, they think the whole planet is conspiring against them, even educated ones

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:21 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
Lhug-Pa wrote:
How does ridiculing Muhammad Prophet of Islam address the issue of fanaticism within the religion? That's similar to someone making cartoons making fun of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a response to the behavior of NKT or 'Diamond Way'. Or like making fun of Jesus in response to the fanaticism of Southern Baptists.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they did, but I definitely wouldn't encourage it.


I prefer to encourage freedom of speech & thought. Capitulation to thugs, religious or otherwise, causes more problems than it solves.

There is strong element in Islam that wants to take over the world for Allah anyway. So the more fear they see in non-Muslims, the stronger they feel, since it is Allah's will being imposed - which is just dandy with these religious totalitarians.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
Will wrote:
"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:39 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
This is a worthwhile reflection:

Quote:
The definition

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8
Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."


this and more at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm
Posts: 1428
Theosophy says that "All Religions are precious pearls strung on the golden thread of Divinity". This being said, my main point is: Why not ridicule fanaticism itself within the religion, instead making fun of Islam's Prophet.

Zionism is still scarier than "Islamic" fanaticism overall. At least Muslims don't control usury-style international-banking and bulldoze people's homes. I wouldn't be surprised if many fanatical "Islamic" groups are Zionist-backed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:55 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
Jikan wrote:
Will wrote:
"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.


That is your priority, a barbarism census within Islam? Go to it, why not start the census and report back after studying whatever data you like.

I prefer to face the fact that Islamic murderers & assassins are a danger to world peace (ah remember that meme) and will not be satisfied with anything less than 'surrender' (which is what Allah demands).

The Kalacakra prophecy is unfolding slowly and at some point this barbaric, totalitarian movement must be opposed with thoughts, words and deeds. Now is as good a time as any.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:59 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
Will wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Will wrote:
"All Muslims" are not required, only the barbaric ones, of which there are many millions.


Many millions? That's a big claim. Prove it.


That is your priority, a barbarism census within Islam? Go to it, why not start the census and report back after studying whatever data you like.

I prefer to face the fact that Islamic murderers & assassins are a danger to world peace (ah remember that meme) and will not be satisfied with anything less than 'surrender' (which is what Allah demands).


You made the claim that there are millions of barbarians in Islam, not me, so the burden of proof is on you. I'm suggesting that if you lack such proof, your statement lacks truthfulness (you are speaking from stereotype and not fact), and hence, it is not right speech.

I think your comments in this thread are divisive and ill-informed. They would be more convincing if you started from a position of fact rather than invective and hyperbole.

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:01 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Posts: 5771
Lhug-Pa wrote:
Zionism is still scarier than "Islamic" fanaticism overall. At least Muslims don't control usury-style international-banking and bulldoze people's homes. I wouldn't be surprised if many fanatical "Islamic" groups are Zionist-backed.


Big claim. Do you have any evidence at all that there is some cabal of Jewish moneylenders controlling global finance?

_________________
Need help getting on retreat? Want to support others in practice? Pay the Dana for Dharma forum a visit...

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=13727


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 2776
Quote:
Quote:
It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:

Are we forgetting how the Thais and Burmese used to slaughter each other and ravage & burn down each other's Viharas? Are we forgetting how certain powerful sects see it fit to suppress another? I could go on but these are enough for now...

Oh and Will, it's my poor opinion that each nation's media outlet could do better highlighting causes of social justice for the poor and marginalised and push for reforms to benefit all ranks in their respective societies than engage in pages of circus stunts...

_________________
TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF


Last edited by plwk on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 1014
Good grief. All kinds of irony meters going off in this thread. How sad.

:zzz:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 4027
Location: Spaceship Earth
plwk wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
It would be great if every non-Muslim nation had at least one brave media outlet that would regularly make fun of, criticize and sneer at the barbaric notions Islam practices.


Not all Muslims are barbaric.

And luckily there have never been Buddhists at any point in history that have ever acted barbarically. :roll:

Are we forgetting how the Thais and Burmese used to slaughter each other and ravage & burn down each other's Viharas? Are we forgetting how certain powerful sects see it fit to suppress another? I could go on but these are enough for now...


My comment was sarcastic, which is why I used this smiley: :roll:

_________________
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:20 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
So far, the responses are not interesting, just predictable - denial, debate or divert. :zzz:

If anyone has thoughts about the thread topic - what to do or not do, about the Western fear-based, voluntary suppression of critical speech regarding Islam - please chime in.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:39 am
Posts: 819
Location: USA
Will wrote:
If anyone has thoughts about the thread topic - what to do or not do, about the Western fear-based, voluntary suppression of critical speech regarding Islam - please chime in.


Can something be both "fear-based" and "voluntary"?

One solution might be to require anyone who wants to write about Islam or Muslims, in newspapers or on the Internet, to thoroughly investigate the situation first-hand by living as a practicing Muslim for a year before being allowed to draw conclusions and writing about them.

:namaste:

_________________
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Free Speech & Islam
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:40 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Posts: 2995
Location: British Columbia
Free speech is like a license to drive a car, or to own a gun. Like the car and the gun, freedom of speech can be abused. Buddhism imposes strong restraints on free speech, in the form of the doctrines of Right Speech. In a topic as sensitive as this one, it is a duty of each writer to check his material against the principles laid out in the sutras before posting. Parts of those sutras have already been laid out here, in this very thread.

From the Dhammapada:

"He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who brood on this, hostility isn't stilled. "He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. (Verses 3-5) Translator: Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Those who wish to simply list the perceived sins of Islam against them will get no encouragement from me. Indeed, if the current hostile climate does not change in this thread, I'm quite likely to shut it down on the basis that it is harmful to all concerned. Further, a hostile thread runs directly counter to the ToS, section 1.

_________________
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group