Yogacara and dzogchen

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby anjali » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
anjali wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Because the nature of the mind for sutra is strictly emptiness. Lhundrup is never mentioned nor implied in sutra at all in any way. The understanding of mind (sems, citta) in Chan/Sutra is completely different than in Dzogchen for that reason.

But you can believe whatever you like, I don't have time to propely correct your misunderstanding. Read Nubchen.

Chinul clearly states that mind-essence includes both awareness and emptiness. Therefore, his exposition can't be considered strictly sutra. I will take a look at Nubchen, if I can find a good english translation.


What makes you think the nature of the mind being both empty and aware is not a sutrayāna perspective? It in fact is.


Hmmm. What does "strictly" mean in your comment, "Because the nature of the mind for sutra is strictly emptiness"?

I like your quotes, particularly, "The wise are liberated by knowing the phenomena's empty luminous nature in that way."
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby anjali » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:Also the common sutra has ādarśa-jñāna i.e. the mirrorlike wisdom.

Also Hindus use the metaphor of the mirror. Surely you are not going to equate Shankaracarya and Chinul?

Further the example of a mirror is used over and over again in sutra teachings. Surely you are not going to assert Dzogchen exists in sutra?


Does Shankaracarya equate the mirror with emptiness? As Dzogchen begins with the pointing out instruction, it can't be equated with sutra. However, oral and written teachings can be compared for similar concepts.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:42 pm

anjali wrote:
Hmmm. What does "strictly" mean in your comment, "Because the nature of the mind for sutra is strictly emptiness"?

I like your quotes, particularly, "The wise are liberated by knowing the phenomena's empty luminous nature in that way."



Depends on how you use "nature" -- in this case what I mean is that the ultimate nature of the mind for sutra is absence of any nature, as demonstrated by my citations -- that does not conflict with the capacity of the mind to know or be aware etc., as demonstrated by my citations, not even does it contradict the that mind is ultimately the buddha when it knows its own nature.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:52 am

Malcolm wrote:Ārya-pratyutpanna-buddhasaṃmukhāvasthitasamādhi-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra:

佛說般舟三昧經
Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Pratyutpanna Buddha Sammukhāvasthita Samādhi:
"What should they do in order to achieve self-fulfillment, free from sycophancy and flattery and
unattached to the Three Realms of Existence? "

The above passage is indication that this is not a scripture of definitive meaning. The Maharatnakuta
sutra stated "If any scripture, there is a saying that show: revulsion against samsara and inclined
toward nirvana, is non-definitive."

Try to rely on any recognized scripture of definitive meaning if you want to compare the perspective
of sutras with dzogchen tantra.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:38 am

Malcolm wrote:Depends on how you use "nature" -- in this case what I mean is that the ultimate nature of the mind
for sutra is absence of any nature


The sutras taught the body and means (Ti-yung) which is derived from the structure of 體相用 (Ti-
xiang-yung) or body, form and means. The nature (性) is of the body (體), according to:

成唯識論卷第十
The body, form and means are the trikaya. The body (身) of the self nature is the body (體).
The sambogakaya is the form. the nirmanakaya is the means. The body of the self nature
is the pure self nature of the dharmakaya of the Tatagatha, due to being relied by the sambogakaya
and nirmanakaya. Due to being separated from name and form, it is the ceasing of words and
thoughts, possessing the infinite merit of true permanence. This is the true nature of the equality of
all dharma.
X50n0821_p0824b20║ 就體相用分為三身。自性身是體。受
X50n0821_p0824b21║ 用身是相。變化身是用。言自性身者。即是如來自
X50n0821_p0824b22║ 性清淨法體。是報化二身所依止故。由彼離名離
X50n0821_p0824b23║ 相。絕言絕思。具足無邊真常功德。是一切法平等。
X50n0821_p0824b24║ 真實之性。

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:58 am

So I should accept that consciousness is permanent and that's definitive?
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 am

Andrew108 wrote:So I should accept that consciousness is permanent and that's definitive?


The 7 consciousnesses are of the means and therefore are neither permanent nor impermanent, whereas the 8th consciousness is the body and therefore permanent. The latter is the consciousness that survived the great fire at the end of the kalpa.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:30 am

And this is definitive?
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:10 am

For comparison here you have a quote from my notes on Longchenpa:

The terminology of Dzogchen differs from Cittamatra because the primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi) and the spontaneous accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) of the Appearances of the Basis
(Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) transcend the Mind (Wyl. Sems) and its mental events including the duality between the apprehender and the apprehended. The Mind (Wyl. Sems) is associated only with the Eight Consciousnesses, which according to Cittamatra or Shentong are the allbasic consciousness (Alaya Vijnana), the direct consciousness and the six consciousnesses of senses. According to terminology of Dzogchen this Mind (Wyl. Sems) arises only during the last third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) which took place only after not spontaneously accomplishing (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) because of the second Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) and only after not recognizing the primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) because of the first Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa).
http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html

There are the infinitive modes (of Arising of Spontaneous Accomplishment; Wyl. Lhun-Grub) which can be summarized into 8 in practice of Dzogchen. In contrast it seems the practice of Yogacara has the only one mode - the absent:

Ju Mipham further explains the process of enlightenment according to the 3 natures:

• What appears to the nonconceptual sensory faculty as a duality of perceived and perceiver
• The process of formulation conducted by the rational mind, which is conceptual and first makes the assumption that whatever appears to be a duality actually exists that way and then formulates it by assigning a specific term; this is a process which is internal and equivalent to the rational mind’s conceptualization of percept and perceiver
• The inner faculties, that of the eye and so on
• Outer objects, form and so on
• The principles of awareness, the eye consciousness, and so on
• Vessel-like worlds’ appearances experienced in common.

Since these are all absent, suchness (the perfect nature) free of all these types of differentiation appears in its one taste (beyond reference points unimpaired vision, by example when the eye defect of blurred vision has been cured and one realizes that what appeared as floating hairs is no longer obctructive for the vision after the cure). This is what is referred to as “the subsiding of dualistic appearance into emptiness (Sunyata beyond extremes).


From my notes at http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/hornlike.html
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:26 am

Andrew108 wrote:And this is definitive?


yes
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:36 am

Mariusz wrote:The terminology of Dzogchen differs from Cittamatra because the primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi) and the spontaneous accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) transcend the Mind (Wyl. Sems) and its mental events including the duality between the apprehender and the apprehended.


No different here. The ultimate nature (thusness) of the yogacara is sameness of apprehender and the apprehended.

The Mind (Wyl. Sems) is associated only with the Eight Consciousnesses, which according to Cittamatra or Shentong are the allbasic consciousness (Alaya Vijnana), the direct consciousness and the six consciousnesses of senses.


Conventionally speaking only, definitively speaking only the 7th and 8th consciousness is the mind (means) which is neither permanent nor impermanent.

According to terminology of Dzogchen this Mind (Wyl. Sems) arises only during the last third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) which took place only after not spontaneously accomplishing (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) because of the second Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) and only after not recognizing the primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) because of the first Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-
pa).http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html


Since this mind is actually the 8th consciousness, in the state of delusion as the means, it is called the alaya-vijnana, whereas in the state of intellect as the means, it is called the tatagatha-garbha. Your system lacked the word tatagatha-garbha, and so it required additional description of such body.

There are the infinitive modes (of Arising of Spontaneous Accomplishment; Wyl. Lhun-Grub) which can be summarized into 8 in practice of Dzogchen. In contrast it seems the practice of Yogacara has the only one mode - the absent:


Again these modes refering to the body, which are not relied in yogacara, also in dzogchen, only vidya is relied, and not the so called modes.
Basically, the elaborate terms in dzogchen is unnecessary and even if they are present, they simply refered to the same body of the yogacara.

Ju Mipham further explains the process of enlightenment according to the 3 natures:

• What appears to the nonconceptual sensory faculty as a duality of perceived and perceiver
• The process of formulation conducted by the rational mind, which is conceptual and first makes the assumption that whatever appears to be a duality actually exists that way and then formulates it by assigning a specific term; this is a process which is internal and equivalent to the rational mind’s conceptualization of percept and perceiver
• The inner faculties, that of the eye and so on
• Outer objects, form and so on
• The principles of awareness, the eye consciousness, and so on
• Vessel-like worlds’ appearances experienced in common.

Since these are all absent,


The three natures are basically the imaginary nature, dependent arising nature and the ultimate nature, as well as the 12 entrances are taught in yogacara, what are special about these?

suchness (the perfect nature) free of all these types of differentiation appears in its one taste (beyond reference points unimpaired vision, by example when the eye defect of blurred vision has been cured and one realizes that what appeared as floating hairs is no longer obctructive for the vision after the cure). This is what is referred to as “the subsiding of dualistic appearance into emptiness (Sunyata beyond extremes).”


This is sum up as thusness (bhuta-tatatha) in yogacara.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:14 am

Jyoti wrote:No different here

For me the difference is while Yogacara deals with the duality of apprehender and the apprehended only, Dzogchen includes it but also infinite other "things". Of course these "things to be practiced" were far before the duality is started. I mean before the first and the second Unenlightenment. The only hope for Yogacara is "they" somehow start to be practiced after "the absence" because of total end of all incalculable rebirths as a practitioner of Mahayana. But there is no guarantee if Yogacara will ever have access to "what" is before the first or the second Unenlightenment (wylie. Marigpa).

BTW. The process of "the absence" according to 3 natures of Yogacara is: "the non-existence of the imagined nature in the other-dependent nature" makes possible to point-out the perfect nature. But it makes possible only....
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:30 am

Here you have synthesis on practice of Dzogchen where from the start you have "rigpé tsal wang" and meditation is primordial purity (kadak trekchö) without effort and its spontaneous presence (lhundrup tögal). So they deal even with the first and the second Unenlightenment.

"i. Entry Point

One’s mind is matured through the four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments (rigpé tsal wang), and one keeps the samayas as explained in the texts.

ii. View

The view is definitively established by looking directly into the naturally arising wisdom in which the three kayas are inseparable: the empty essence of naked awareness beyond the ordinary mind is the dharmakaya, its cognizant nature is the sambhogakaya, and its all-pervasive compassionate energy is the nirmanakaya.

iii. Meditation

The meditation consists of the approach of cutting through resistance to primordial purity (kadak trekchö), through which the lazy can reach liberation without effort, and the approach of the direct realization of spontaneous presence (lhundrup tögal), through which the diligent can reach liberation with exertion.

iv. Conduct

The conduct is free from hope and fear and adopting and abandoning, because all that appears manifests as the display of reality itself.

v. Results

Perfecting the four visions of the path, one gains the supreme kaya, the rainbow body of great transference, and attains the level of glorious Samantabhadra, the thirteenth bhumi known as ‘Unexcelled Wisdom’ (yeshe lama)."


Translated by Adam. 2005. http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/alak-zenkar/nine-yanas
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby futerko » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Jyoti wrote:Conventionally speaking only, definitively speaking only the 7th and 8th consciousness is the mind (means) which is neither permanent nor impermanent.

...

Since this mind is actually the 8th consciousness, in the state of delusion as the means, it is called the alaya-vijnana, whereas in the state of intellect as the means, it is called the tatagatha-garbha. Your system lacked the word tatagatha-garbha, and so it required additional description of such body.


This can't be right. Previously you said the 8th consciousness was on the side of body (and therefore permanent), so the second part should read... whereas in the state of intellect as the body, which means that from a Dzogchen point of view the distinction of means/body was only ever provisional in the first place.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:28 pm

Mariusz wrote:For me the difference is while Yogacara deals only with the duality of apprehender and the
apprehended only, Dzogchen includes it but also infinitive other "things".


In Yogacar the principle of body and means, the interpenetration of the teaching of the various traditions, the various intellects and so on, covered all the essentials for both liberation and scholastic analysis that is effective for anyone capable of handling it. Whereas dzogchen include more details on the side of the body (whereas the means only reserved for direct introduction and upadesa), those details are actually not that important. Since those details have little to do with practice and the way of abiding, they actually create confusion when translated, analysed or compared with other buddhist traditions. These elements that do not contribute to practical application of the teaching, do not constitute the different nor superiority of the teaching as a whole. Because there is a body of teaching, the differences of the branches are not so important. For example, a body end at thusness, alaya-vijnana, tatagathagarbha, etc. whatever else develop from that point onward is not so important and does not contribute much to understanding.

I mean before the first and the second Unenlightenment. The only hope for Yogacara is "they"
somehow start to be practiced after "the absence" because of total end of all incaclulable lives of
practice of Mahayana. But there is no guarantee if Yogacara will ever have access to "what" is before
the first or the second Unenlightenment (wylie. Marigpa).


If one where to analyse after one revert to the basis (alaya-vijnana or tatagatagarbha) after the dissolution of the physical body, what is the cause of re-awakening in the absence of the 7 consciousnesses as the means? The answer is the seed of bodhi that is stored within the storehouse consciousness, thus once the two-fold manifestation of the ground consciousness begin to occur, it is caused by the innate seeds and the seeds of bodhi will ripped simultaneously, this along with all previous seed of the all-intellect will be ripped as well, just when the manifestation is at the stage where the capacity for delusion could occurred, then the stage where the capacity for the intellect would also occurred, when the intellect is stronger than the delusion, then re-awakening occurred. Thus the only guarantee for re-awakening whether in dzogchen or yogacara is to fully perfect the stages of the bhumi in this life, by relying on the means (intellect or vidya) , by relying on the means, the action of perfuming of the seeds of bodhi occurred, this causes the existing seeds to multiply or develop themselves in the direction of bodhi, causes the perfection of the various bhumis.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Mariusz » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Jyoti wrote:Whereas dzogchen include more...(...direct introduction and upadesa), those details are actually not that important. Since those details have little to do with practice

They are actually cruicial and there is really so many to "practise" with them.

Jyoti wrote:If one where to analyse after one revert to the basis (alaya-vijnana or tatagatagarbha) after the dissolution of the physical body, what is the cause of re-awakening in the absence of the 7 consciousnesses as the means?
There is no cause but in therminology of dzogchen it is called:

“Having broken” the “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) because of the Nature (Wyl. Rang bZhin) of the Pristine Awareness (Wyl. Rig-pa) arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) with the Power (Wyl. Rtsal) to recognize them.... by the Power (Wyl. Rtsal) the spontaneous accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) ...there is the third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) which causes the arising of the (dualistic) Mind (Wyl. Sems) that apprehends the Appearances of the Basis (in forms of the five lights of five wisdoms and the buddha-bodies) as other than an apprehender with their final transformation into the five elements (space, wind, fire, water, earth) and the gross bodies of Samsara until one take a rebirth in one of the six realms of Samsara according to the process of 12 links of Dependent Origination. " http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html
Last edited by Mariusz on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Stewart » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:58 pm

After 15 or so pages I have no idea why anyone is still engaging Jyoti on this thread, she has shown not only a string of misunderstandings regarding Dzogchen, but is also misrepresenting Yogacara, the position she claims to hold. A number of people have tried to 'debate' with her, but to no benefit.

She is never going to concede a point to anyone, not because she is correct but because she is too proud to simply say 'I don't know' or 'actually, you are right'

Jyoti, the list of mistakes regarding Dzogchen and Yogacara that you have shown throughout this thread is evidence of the error of relying on book learning. Many people have pointed it out to you, you have chosen to persist. Swallow your pride, and find a real, live Dzogchen teacher.

Everyone else, abandon the thread and move on.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:04 pm

futerko wrote:
Jyoti wrote:Conventionally speaking only, definitively speaking only the 7th and 8th consciousness is the mind (means) which is neither permanent nor impermanent.

...

Since this mind is actually the 8th consciousness, in the state of delusion as the means, it is called the alaya-vijnana, whereas in the state of intellect as the means, it is called the tatagatha-garbha. Your system lacked the word tatagatha-garbha, and so it required additional description of such body.


This can't be right. Previously you said the 8th consciousness was on the side of body (and therefore permanent), so the second part should read... whereas in the state of intellect as the body, which means that from a Dzogchen point of view the distinction of means/body was only ever provisional in the first place.


Typing error, I meant to say the 6th and 7th consciousnesses.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:32 pm

Mariusz wrote:Here you have synthesis on practice of Dzogchen where from the start you have "rigpé tsal wang" and meditation is primordial purity (kadak trekchö) without effort and its spontaneous presence (lhundrup tögal). So they deal even with the first and the second Unenlightenment.


Without effort and spontaneous presence is the form on the side of the body, so these are not come about by effort, simply have the ability to recognize thusness is to have cover both the body and means. The ability is of the means, the means is of effort, by training in the means, one progresses in the bodhi, and not vice versa.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:40 pm

Mariusz wrote:There is no cause but in therminology of dzogchen it is called:

“Having broken” the “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) because of the Nature (Wyl. Rang bZhin) of the Pristine Awareness (Wyl. Rig-pa) arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) with the Power (Wyl. Rtsal) to recognize them.... by the Power (Wyl. Rtsal) the spontaneous accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) ...there is the third Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) which causes the arising of the (dualistic) Mind (Wyl. Sems) that apprehends the Appearances of the Basis (in forms of the five lights of five wisdoms and the buddha-bodies) as other than an apprehender with their final transformation into the five elements (space, wind, fire, water, earth) and the gross bodies of Samsara until one take a rebirth in one of the six realms of Samsara according to the process of 12 links of Dependent Origination. " http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html


The 'power' as mentioned is the cause. That power (intellect) is of the means, and it is stored as seed in the storehouse. prior to the broken of the “Youthful Vase Body”, this power remained as seed (potential). This is in concordance with what I have stated in previous post.

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