Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

[Lhug-Pa]

Tarpa, like I said:

"Back in the days, a Lama or Mahasiddha wouldn't Initiate anyone who they knew was not ready to receive Initiation."

And even to this day many Lama's won't give Initiations to whoever wants it without being prepared.

Please re-read the rest of my previous post.

Also, I don't care about "Aleister Crowley's" O.T.O. or any of the fake-"Templar" Jesuit stuff which has infiltrated Freemasonry (H.P. Blavatsky wrote about this in her Isis Unveiled).

I'll try to address more of your post soon if I can....

[Astus]

The reason for the demise of magick was a fiendish invention called the controlled experiment. For some reason people decided that to be considered real, a phenomenon should be observable, reproducible, behave consistently and be quantitatively predictable. This style of thinking is responsible for our technological world, where we are surrounded by devices that would have been deemed impossible just a couple of centuries ago. In the same centuries, the competing style of thinking has advanced not one inch. The casters-out of demons of today are indistinguishable from those of centuries gone by, or of millenia gone by, and are no better at their craft or any wiser today than they were before. And one really should ask why.

There is another modern idea here to answer why. The idea of progress, of evolving. Does the Dharma require progress, to be better than it was before? No. Neither does magic. In fact, it is generally believed that the ancients knew better. The older the more authentic it is. And this is also reflected in cosmology very well. In science the universe evolved from simple to very complex. In Buddhism, there is just the rebirth of the whole world again and again.

[underthetree]

I don't really get this debate. Surely it's a matter of 'Render unto Caesar.' The mystics take care of the ineffable, the doctors, physicists, chemists et al take care of the physical.

The borders should be as distinct as oil and vinegar. It's where they start to bleed together that the cranks gather.

Maybe someone should tell all the Lama's that practice Ayurveda & Tibetan Medicine; because apparently they're cranks who are ignorant of this apparent fact.

Are Ayurveda and TM magic? I thought they were medicine.

And there are plenty of lamas who have availed themselves of Western medicine, to their benefit and to that of all sentient beings. They apparently see no contradiction.

[Lhug-Pa]

Tantra and Tibetan Medicine are inseparable, just as Religion and Science are inseparable.

[Sherlock]

Going back to the topic, magical practices are of course unnecessary, but they can be useful secondary practices if obstacles come up in the course of your life. Beyond that, it enters a morally ambiguous area IMO, especially with things like coercion or liberation rites. For a while I've been thinking about using magic in politics and also wondering if there have been any rituals done in recent years to repel the Communists in Tibet. Still, all magic is subject to dependent origination and big "miracles" are rare.

[Tarpa]

Tarpa, like I said:

"Back in the days, a Lama or Mahasiddha wouldn't Initiate anyone who they knew was not ready to receive Initiation."

And even to this day many Lama's won't give Initiations to whoever wants it without being prepared.

Please re-read the rest of my previous post.

Also, I don't care about "Aleister Crowley's" O.T.O. or any of the fake-"Templar" Jesuit stuff which has infiltrated Freemasonry (H.P. Blavatsky wrote about this in her Isis Unveiled).

I'll try to address more of your post soon if I can....

Nonsense, you can walk into an empowerment anywhere, if u had the money u could fly around to as many as u liked, Garchen and Traga Rinpoche being 2 of my 3 tsawai lamas and Garchen center an hour and a half away I can go to as many as I want if I can afford the cost. Anybody can go, samvara, kilaya, varahi, ekajati, mahakala, yamantaka, whatever, they are a pretty active center year round. Vajrayana is self secret, it's open to all, it's self secret, empowerment, lung, and texts and commentary don't necessarily make it become not self secret, years of practice may not make it become not self secret, maybe even 10 years and throwing your mala in the toilet doesn't even make it not self secret, maybe living a magickal life is magick in itself, maybe someday the practice just becomes life.

[Lhug-Pa]

Regarding the first paragraph of your post Tarpa, it wasn't always necessarily like that. For a while, Westerners were not even allowed into Tibet, let alone given Empowerments.

And even now, some Lama's won't openly teach everything to everyone.

There also is not really much that's secret within Western Occultism nowadays either.

Teachings are taught more open now partly because humanity has degenerated so much, that the one's who are capable of teaching Esoterism are willing to teach it more openly to save what can be saved before everything is lost.

Although I'd imagine that in the Golden Age everyone could be trusted with higher teachings, whereas in the Silver & Copper Ages they're more reserved for the worthy only, and in the Iron Age they're given more openly mainly as a last resort.

Also, if Rosicrucians/Masons/Theosophists are so elitist and Buddhists aren't, then why did both the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama endorse H.P. Blavatsky's writings and the Theosophical Society.

Anyhow, not everything is necessarily taught in the physical dimension (and I'm not implying any claims for myself by the way):

"Initiation is your own life. If you want initiation, write it upon a staff. Whosoever has understanding let him understand, because there is wisdom within. Initiation is neither bought nor sold. Avoid those schools that give initiations by correspondence. Avoid all those who sell initiations."

"Therefore, whosoever does not know how to consciously project himself in the Astral Body, does not know occultism, even if they have the “33rd social degree of Masonry,” even if they are Aquarian devotees, even if they are named Theosophist or even if they self-qualify themselves as a Rosicrucian Knight. To read books of occultism, or to skillfully theorize about it, can be done by anyone; yet, in order for our Consciousness to acquire cognizance of the occult wisdom is something else, to do this one needs to study the true occult wisdom within the internal worlds." - Samael Aun Weor

[Tarpa]

Teachers and centers are all different, some, like Garchen center, offer H.Y.T. empowerments all the time, open to all.
I have another tsawai lama who is Gelugpa and his center is very secular oriented and he doesn't give H.Y.T. empowerments and rarely gives kriya tantra empowerments, for instance he is giving medicine Buddhha empowerment again but is requiring personal interviews beforehand, so it all depends on the teacher, as it always has.
This isn't a one way street however, practitioners should also match their level to the teachers / centers style so as not to waste ones time. For instance of the two centers mentioned above wich one do you think a 10 year practitioner with experience in lots of H.Y.T. practices is likely to go to ?
One has to have confidence in ones understanding at some point, remember these are not " mysteries ", and the teachers are not saviours or esoteric " elitists " as you say, one has to know ones own level, you know your own level better than anybody else and proceed accordingly, if there's a certain practice you want, a certain empowerment, then you go and get it, wherever that may be. There is no priestly hierarchy in Buddhism, and time is short.
Honestly everybody would do well to go straight to dzogchen. Some people are tantric by nature, and it all just feels like being home, some people are better suited to sutra mahayana but spend years getting confused in vajrayana without ever gaining confidence, it all depends on the practitioner, not the teacher. If a teacher or center is not teaching on the level the practitioner is at then one simply finds a teacher / center that is. The teacher is vajradhara no matter what his name is, and the cult of personality ( usually from the side of the student towards the teacher, not from the teacher himself ) has nothing to do with dharmakaya.

Theosophy and all the rest mean absolutely nothing to Buddhism, and don't necessarily mean anything to any practitioner in the " occult ", they absolutely don't mean anything to the tradition of witchcraft.

[Lhug-Pa]

Well I didn't say or even imply that the Buddha Dharma is elitist.

Agreed, that it is best for many to go straight to Dzogchen, as Dzogchen is a complete Path in Itself.

Both the Panchen Lama and H.H. the Dalai Lama have endorsed Theosophy; so it is not as irrelevant as you seem to be implying. Of course this is not to say that Theosophy is necessary for Buddhists, obviously.

[zangskar]

Also, if Rosicrucians/Masons/Theosophists are so elitist and Buddhists aren't, then why did both the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama endorse H.P. Blavatsky's writings and the Theosophical Society.
(...)
Both the Panchen Lama and H.H. the Dalai Lama have endorsed Theosophy; so it is not as irrelevant as you seem to be implying.

I assume what you mean is that their Holinesses wrote forewords in a book or two (which probably means: allowed their names to be put there).

Probably better to put it like that, instead of stating that Panchen Lama and Dalai Lama endorse the writings [of which there are many] and the society itself, which is not exactly true.

Best wishes
Lars

[muni]

The reason for the demise of magick was a fiendish invention called the controlled experiment. For some reason people decided that to be considered real, a phenomenon should be observable, reproducible, behave consistently and be quantitatively predictable. This style of thinking is responsible for our technological world, where we are surrounded by devices that would have been deemed impossible just a couple of centuries ago. In the same centuries, the competing style of thinking has advanced not one inch. The casters-out of demons of today are indistinguishable from those of centuries gone by, or of millenia gone by, and are no better at their craft or any wiser today than they were before. And one really should ask why.

There is another modern idea here to answer why. The idea of progress, of evolving. Does the Dharma require progress, to be better than it was before? No. Neither does magic. In fact, it is generally believed that the ancients knew better. The older the more authentic it is. And this is also reflected in cosmology very well. In science the universe evolved from simple to very complex. In Buddhism, there is just the rebirth of the whole world again and again.

Ideas about modern times and the old times, here included a talk by Khyentse Yeshe. I posted the other youtubes in Dzogchen forum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdz7YuFS ... re=related

[Steveyboy]

Here's an interesting little photo of H. E. Tsem Rinpoche for you that seems to be relevant to the thread.

KAZAAM!!! Life is all about bringing magic into the lives of others! To bring love, compassion and kindness into the lives of others is magical.~Tsem Rinpoche

[catmoon]

KAZAAM!!! Life is all about bringing magic into the lives of others! To bring love, compassion and kindness into the lives of others is magical.~Tsem Rinpoche

It seems to me that there is nothing in the slightest magical about these things. It's just cause and effect. All you have to do is keep the welfare of others in mind and love, compassion and kindness will inevitably follow. No incantations required. Just follow the teachings.

[DarwidHalim]

I prefer physic power instead of magic. And for sure, this physic power is very important.

Atisha in his lamp for the path to enlightenment

(35)
Just as a bird with undeveloped
wings cannot fly in the sky,
Those without the power of higher perception
Cannot work for the good of living beings.

If we just think to achieve enlightenment for ourself, probably we don't need all these physic powers. Without physic power we also can help people, but when you think about it, you can realize that your ability is limited.

Is it necessary?
If you think to benefits all beings, it is necessary. Otherwise, you are limited to reach others.

[dzoki]

is magic necessary? No, but it surely is entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yw7oX5CXhk

[Lhug-Pa]

Legerdemain there^, to be more precise.

Actual Magic is reserved for the Magi, Siddhas, Mahasiddhas, etc.

[Tarpa]

People have dramatic ideas of magic just as some people may have dramatic ideas about Buddhism and tantra, magic is subtle and magic operates in subtle dimensions, like visualization does, and astrology, and the subtler aspects of the 5 elements.
Ritual is just a focusing tool and aligning and amplification of subtle astral and elemental influences, to a large degree magic is applied manipulative astrology. As in tantric parctice ritual is simply the outer aspect u see, the most important part of the practice is internal, imagination, visualization, shamata and one pointedness, strong directed will, confidence is paramount, and the energy raised and used to propel this is emotional, and astral.
Witchcraft is astral and elemental based.
The best time to use magic to affect change is when something undertaken should have manifested but hasn't, when all the physical actions to attain whatever goal have been done, when all has been tried but there is just something in the way, some obstacle, applied magic may provide the subtle influence to affect a positive direction or remove a negative aspect.
Most magicians don't go around winning lotteries and levitating or many of the other dramatic ideas about practitioners.
Astrology and the days and times of astral influence is really the witches clock, substances imbued with the same astral / elemental qualities are used, it's simply aligning many influences of the same specific type, stacking the cards as much as possible, but the real act is internal, ritual is the directing tool, as we all know merely thinking things doesn't necessarily do much, ambiguous vague will simply dissipates, but when the 3 actions of body, speech, and mind are in play and focused and directed one way then this is focusing and directing power. We know ritual from vajrayana of course.
Never underestimate the power of the mind, of imagination, of one pointedness and visualization, the world is not solid, we are all magical creations in a sense. Never underestimate the subtle aspects of the 5 elements for the 5 elements are all anything and everything is made of. And astral influence is subtle but can be used and is known and employed, just as it is in astrology.
But u are right if u want to classify as a witch or magi one who has the actual siddhi, witch power, pervasive prana, tu, whatever u want to call it, this is true, this is a true witch, and this type doesn't need depend on ritual and substances. But this doesn't mean ordinary magic can't be practiced by anybody or be beneficial, all that is needed is understanding of the above said principles and application.