Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Tarpa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:57 am

Yes I don't see it as cultural garbage, I see it as pragmatic human concern. I am a practicing witch in the western tradition as well as a student of western magickal systems, besides being a Buddhist tantrika, so I am not against magick, or utilizing occult knowledge, wich I prefer to call knowledge not apparent rather than " hidden " or " secret " knowledge, for the benefit of oneself or others at all.
I tend to keep this to myself these days and tippy toe around trying to explain it to western Buddhists who have an aversion to such topics anymore because I have stated some of the same things this thread has in previous threads and have been met with derision, So it's funny to be hit with the other shoe, lol. :D It is certainly true many western Buddhists have a very dismissive view of such things. But like I said before all religions are occultic, and include occultic arts.
And let us not forget that some mahasiddhas were naths, generally regarded with fear and awe within the community because of their sorceries. And of course vedic and hindu culture are a treasure house of benefit in many ways.

In times not so long ago magick was seen as just a part of the natural world, or rather the natural world was engaged by humans more fully, magick and science went hand in hand, we lost something along the way, especially after the industrial revolution, and I don't view this as a small loss in any way, we lost connection, we lost respect. And many problems in the world these days are indeed the result of this i.m.o.
The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering
is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendence
of suffering.
Knots tied on space
are untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,
and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,
completing all qualities of the stages of the paths
may I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara
Tarpa
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:20 am
Location: Apache Junction, Arizona

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:32 am

In answer to the OP: No. Many a Buddhist manages just fine without any appeal to devas, pretas, spirits, oracles, ghosts or protectors. However, if you take the position that you can be a Tibetan Buddhist and ignore all the above, then you are in for a rousing debate. And if you take the position that you can be a highest Tantra type Buddhist without the above... well it's pretty much a contradiction in terms as far as I know.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:35 am

catmoon wrote:In answer to the OP: No. Many a Buddhist manages just fine without any appeal to devas, pretas, spirits, oracles, ghosts or protectors.


It begs the question how far they are to begin with.

The further you progress it seems the more these things can become problematic.


However, if you take the position that you can be a Tibetan Buddhist and ignore all the above, then you are in for a rousing debate. And if you take the position that you can be a highest Tantra type Buddhist without the above... well it's pretty much a contradiction in terms as far as I know.


It isn't just Tibetan Buddhists who employ these things. Soto Zen, Chinese Chan and every other Mahāyāna tradition I can think of has rites for appeasing and/or placating worldly deities.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5570
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:45 am

Tarpa wrote:In times not so long ago magick was seen as just a part of the natural world, or rather the natural world was engaged by humans more fully, magick and science went hand in hand, we lost something along the way, especially after the industrial revolution, and I don't view this as a small loss in any way, we lost connection, we lost respect. And many problems in the world these days are indeed the result of this i.m.o.


Materialism won the reality wars of the Renaissance and the result was a mainstream ideology which sees matter as primary and anything mental and/or spiritual as a secondary phenomena. It is quite an arbitrary belief system to accept only data received through the physical senses as real and see anything else unreal, but nevertheless that is the current state of mainstream thought in our present day. Most educated people in Asia as well accept materialism without question even if they engage in religious activities, which are generally more out of tradition than anything else.

Actually with most Buddhists in the west as well this is likewise the case. They might claim to "believe in rebirth", but it doesn't reflect in their actual lives (like making merit for future lives or taking the lower realms all that seriously). They're prone to reinterpret devas and pretas as mere mental states, and engage in revisionism to suit their worldview; trying to stick whatever they can into the corners of western thought to make it feel acceptable.

Under such conditions "practice" becomes mere feel-good palliative care.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5570
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:03 am

The reason for the demise of magick was a fiendish invention called the controlled experiment. For some reason people decided that to be considered real, a phenomenon should be observable, reproducible, behave consistently and be quantitatively predictable. This style of thinking is responsible for our technological world, where we are surrounded by devices that would have been deemed impossible just a couple of centuries ago. In the same centuries, the competing style of thinking has advanced not one inch. The casters-out of demons of today are indistinguishable from those of centuries gone by, or of millenia gone by, and are no better at their craft or any wiser today than they were before. And one really should ask why.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:43 am

Vulgar, materialistic, or profane science isn't all that advanced, really. Unless you call destroying the planet "advancement". I'm not saying that materialistic science hasn't done some good things, but it has been overall more destructive than positive, at least in this time and place (other planet's inhabitants might make much better use of physical technology).

As for Magic supposedly not being advanced, currently very few would even have the means to know if Magic is advanced:


In his epic book The Secret Teachings of All Ages, Manly P. Hall wrote:"...he who would fathom the depths of philosophic thought must familiarize himself with the teachings of those initiated priests designated as the first custodians of divine revelation. The Mysteries claimed to be the guardians of a transcendental knowledge so profound as to be incomprehensible save to the most exalted intellect and so potent as to be revealed with safety only to those in whom personal ambition was dead and who had consecrated their lives to the unselfish service of humanity. Both the dignity of these sacred institutions and the validity of their claim to possession of Universal Wisdom are attested by the most illustrious philosophers of antiquity, who were themselves initiated into the profundities of the secret doctrine and who bore witness to its efficacy.

"The question may legitimately be propounded: If these ancient mystical institutions were of such "great pith and moment," why is so little information now available concerning them and the arcana they claimed to possess? The answer is simple enough: The Mysteries were secret societies, binding their initiates to inviolable secrecy, and avenging with death the betrayal of their sacred trusts. Although these schools were the true inspiration of the various doctrines promulgated by the ancient philosophers, the fountainhead of those doctrines was never revealed to the profane. Furthermore, in the lapse of time the teachings became so inextricably linked with the names of their disseminators that the actual but recondite source--the Mysteries--came to be wholly ignored." - Manly P. Hall 33°


Hence the reason for Initiation/Samaya in Vajrayana.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:12 am

catmoon wrote:The reason for the demise of magick was a fiendish invention called the controlled experiment. For some reason people decided that to be considered real, a phenomenon should be observable, reproducible, behave consistently and be quantitatively predictable.


Same old platitudes from the narrative of modern progress.

This only applies to perceptions obtained through the physical sense organs. There is more to human experience than what your physical senses perceive. Consider how qi or in Indic traditions prāṇa has not been demonstrated as belonging to matter or normal energy, yet yogis do profound things with it and perform physical feats that cannot be explained or under normal circumstances reproduced. There are also perceptions that come with symbols, language, logic and mathematics that are very real and possess causal efficacy even in the physical world (the physical world is not a closed system contrary to what is often believed), but are not regarded as such by the established mainstream.



This style of thinking is responsible for our technological world, where we are surrounded by devices that would have been deemed impossible just a couple of centuries ago.


The physical world is not the only realm of experience we perceive. There is much more to human experience than the material world with all its gadgets and technological marvels.

The ability of materialist science to manipulate the physical world is indeed remarkable, but largely a result of increased complexity given massive energy subsidies in the form of long-term fossil fuel use. A lot of technological development was made possible simply because there was sufficient energy to allow such complexity. It isn't because our ancestors were ignorant while post-Renaissance figures finally got it right.

In the same centuries, the competing style of thinking has advanced not one inch. The casters-out of demons of today are indistinguishable from those of centuries gone by, or of millenia gone by, and are no better at their craft or any wiser today than they were before. And one really should ask why.


Not all scientists or engineers are equal, so why should that apply to magicians or yogis? How many advanced yogis or magicians do you know anyway to make such claims?

There are plenty of amateurs for every skilled craftswoman.

How you gauge wisdom and knowledge are largely subjective. Does knowledge of the occult and yogic arts make us better able to understand and manipulate the physical world? Not really, no, but that isn't the realm which the occult or yogic arts are primarily directed at.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5570
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:22 am

Re: Lhug Pa

Fortunately calling something vulgar and profane does not make it so.

If you think it's not all that advanced, then surely that must be because it is so easily mastered. And it would follow that you could demonstrate your point by going out in your back yard and building me an i7 chip. When you are done that, you can put a polish on the idea by demonstrating how to generate differential solutions to the equations of relativity. If you even know what such a thing is.

It's true we are destroying the planet. And technology has been the means. But if you want to go back to waving vulture bones at people to cure a toothache, if you think we would be better off losing our lives to smallpox, tuberculosis, diptheria, the plague and on and on... you're welcome to it.

It's not really technology that is the root cause of the problems. It the human unwillingness to give up the right to have children, the unwillingness to share, that messes everything up. Technology is just being used as a scapegoat for human failings. So we have seven billion people on a planet that might comfortably support two.

So we can either promote contraception and family planning, or we can sacrifice a chicken to the Protectors and hope they will help us. Mind you they have a pretty bad track record on that, you know the Muslims in India, the Chinese in Tibet all that sort of thing, but hey its something you can do yourself with almost no education or effort and it does make you think you have the situation in control.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:08 am

Huseng wrote:
catmoon wrote:The reason for the demise of magick was a fiendish invention called the controlled experiment. For some reason people decided that to be considered real, a phenomenon should be observable, reproducible, behave consistently and be quantitatively predictable.


Same old platitudes from the narrative of modern progress.


True the platitudes are getting old, but that does not make them false. Besides, the platitudes I offer are but a couple of centuries old. The platitudes offered by the magicians and other con men are far older. (Just travel 5000 miles, walk around this building a few times, gaze reverently upon the relics and your troubles will be over. Oh, you're hungry? My brother has a restaurant just down the street. He makes amulets too.).


This only applies to perceptions obtained through the physical sense organs. There is more to human experience than what your physical senses perceive. Consider how qi or in Indic traditions prāṇa has not been demonstrated as belonging to matter or normal energy, yet yogis do profound things with it and perform physical feats that cannot be explained or under normal circumstances reproduced. There are also perceptions that come with symbols, language, logic and mathematics that are very real and possess causal efficacy even in the physical world (the physical world is not a closed system contrary to what is often believed), but are not regarded as such by the established mainstream.


If any of this was even remotely true, surely at least one of these yogis woud have enough kindness in his heart to open a cancer clinic. Or a pain clinic. Something beneficial. But they don't cuz they can't.



This style of thinking is responsible for our technological world, where we are surrounded by devices that would have been deemed impossible just a couple of centuries ago.


The physical world is not the only realm of experience we perceive. There is much more to human experience than the material world with all its gadgets and technological marvels.


Indeed there is, and rational thought can help us spiritually too.



In the same centuries, the competing style of thinking has advanced not one inch. The casters-out of demons of today are indistinguishable from those of centuries gone by, or of millenia gone by, and are no better at their craft or any wiser today than they were before. And one really should ask why.


Not all scientists or engineers are equal, so why should that apply to magicians or yogis? How many advanced yogis or magicians do you know anyway to make such claims?


I'm not saying all engineers are equal, I'm saying they are vastly more skilled than those of even fifty years ago. The same can hardly be said of faith healers. We still have healers pulling bits of pork out of people in the Phillipines and they are making a nice living at it too.

Now you don't need to know any yogis to make these claims, for the simple reason that if one of them had made a breakthrough and could actually do something he'd be swamped by the world media. Look what happened to Buddha Boy and all he did was meditate well.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby muni » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:18 am

Each support we can use for our practice is okay for me. Some will not need it, others do, therefore the huge collection of teachings.

While all is magic! :woohoo:
muni
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:21 am

catmoon wrote:True the platitudes are getting old, but that does not make them false. Besides, the platitudes I offer are but a couple of centuries old. The platitudes offered by the magicians and other con men are far older. (Just travel 5000 miles, walk around this building a few times, gaze reverently upon the relics and your troubles will be over. Oh, you're hungry? My brother has a restaurant just down the street. He makes amulets too.).


What a gross generalization. You're painting every mystic, magician and yogi as a single depository for all inept superstitions.

That's quite unfair and likely offensive to many people here.



This only applies to perceptions obtained through the physical sense organs. There is more to human experience than what your physical senses perceive. Consider how qi or in Indic traditions prāṇa has not been demonstrated as belonging to matter or normal energy, yet yogis do profound things with it and perform physical feats that cannot be explained or under normal circumstances reproduced. There are also perceptions that come with symbols, language, logic and mathematics that are very real and possess causal efficacy even in the physical world (the physical world is not a closed system contrary to what is often believed), but are not regarded as such by the established mainstream.


If any of this was even remotely true, surely at least one of these yogis woud have enough kindness in his heart to open a cancer clinic. Or a pain clinic. Something beneficial. But they don't cuz they can't.


Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine both prescribe beneficial exercises and meditations for healing and maintaining health. These might not immediately cure cancer, but they certainly help. Millions attest to it.

In any case, yogis and mystics generally are not looking to cure cancer as their realm of work is not physical.

You need to reconsider what I said earlier. There is more to existence and experience than the physical realm. What works in one realm will not necessarily be all the applicable elsewhere. Fish do not thrive on mountain peaks. Yaks do not thrive in the sea.


I'm not saying all engineers are equal, I'm saying they are vastly more skilled than those of even fifty years ago. The same can hardly be said of faith healers. We still have healers pulling bits of pork out of people in the Phillipines and they are making a nice living at it too.


And healers are all the same no matter they come from Tibet, Alabama or China, right?

Come on already. That's a gross and antagonistic generalization.

Malcolm on this forum has mentioned before how Tibetan Medicine is evolving and developing as time goes on. It isn't static. Plenty of people attest to its efficacy, which is why it continues. What you are saying implies that all Amchis are full of it and just in it to make a quick buck by deceiving people.

You really need to take a step back and look at your arguments.


Now you don't need to know any yogis to make these claims, for the simple reason that if one of them had made a breakthrough and could actually do something he'd be swamped by the world media. Look what happened to Buddha Boy and all he did was meditate well.


A breakthrough for a yogi would be something like jhana or realizing emptiness ... something abstract and mental, not anything you could reproduce in a laboratory.

Your measure and gauge for development is myopic and limited to physical matters. Again, you have not been addressing my arguments.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5570
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Indrajala » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:22 am

catmoon wrote:
It's true we are destroying the planet. And technology has been the means. But if you want to go back to waving vulture bones at people to cure a toothache, if you think we would be better off losing our lives to smallpox, tuberculosis, diptheria, the plague and on and on... you're welcome to it.


And who is waving vulture bones at people to cure a toothache? Do they represent all non-mainstream medical traditions?
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5570
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: India

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:29 am

Huseng has made many very good points here.

Catmoon, I'm sure the i7 is impressive, but not as impressive at it seems when we consider that the one who made it built off of what the previous guy did, and he built off the previous person's work, etc. I'm not saying that it doesn't take a complicated intellect to produce such things, however I am saying that technology "advancement" is oftentimes more of a focus than a useful innovation.

The international banksters, military-industrial-complex, and mega-corporations control most of technology, so of course it unfortunately is mostly destructive and polluting.

And who's to say that Tibetan Medicine, Ayurveda, and many forms of Shamanism aren't capable of curing many of those diseases? The said methods certainly aren't poisoning people's minds & bodies with synthetic chemicals like big pharma is.


Samael Aun Weor wrote:
Various sanctuaries of medicine that are based on the “royal art” of Nature exist in Central America. Thus, in our world there is no scarcity of secret places where this medical wisdom is cultivated and studied. The human being knew this wisdom in former times, when he lived away from this vicious atmosphere of urban life.

Epidemics put the world in mourning. Death advances triumphantly and devastatingly everywhere. The transitory power of allopathic medicine is abdicating before the avalanche of human pain.

The hour in order to return to Nature, the hour to withdraw into the countryside in order to learn the teachings that I give in this book has arrived.

Thus, in the profound peace of the forests is where we must establish nurseries of medical wisdom, similar to those sanctuaries in Tibet and the Sierra Nevada of Santa Marta.

Youth with genius, defenseless humanity, unsatisfied people, let us go into battle with this re-conquered flag which I raise on high towards all winds! Let us go to battle against scientific exclusivity! Let us go to war against all that is harmful and antiquated!
In the sunny country of Khem, there in those foregone times of ancient Egypt, sick people were not taken into medical clinics. They were taken into the august and sacred temples where the hieratic wisdom was cultivated.

Hence, sick people came out sane and sound from the temples. A lethargy of eternities weigh upon the ancient mysteries. The delectable verb of ancient Sages (who engraved their wisdom in strange embossments upon unconquered walls) seems to be perceived there in that remote distance, within the profound night of the ages. Streets had millenary sphinxes that silently contemplated thousands of pilgrims who came from distinct lands in search of health and light. Faces were tawny due to the ardent sun of happy Arabia. People came from Chaldea, Judaic merchants came from Cyclope or from Tyre, old Yogis came from the sacred land of the Vedas... Medicine was always sacred. Medicine was always the blessed patrimony of the Magi.

Sick people in those forgone times of ancient Egypt covered themselves with aromas within the temples, and the ineffable verb of the holy Masters filled them with life. When all of this was occuring, the great whore (humanity) still had not begotten the Antichrist or the false science and the pontiff of all the abominations of the earth had not yet seated himself upon his seven hills.

In those fully developed ages, and under those sacred colonnades, the Priest of Sais exclaimed:

“Alas, Solon, Solon, my son! The day in which the men will laugh at our sacred hieroglyphics will come. Thus, they will say that we, the ancient people, were worshipping idols.”

Medical clinics will be abolished in the Age of Aquarius. Healing sanctuaries will be opened everywhere. It will not matter if we have to tolerate with stoicism the swats from the claws of the beast, whose number is 666. To the battle, children of the light, for our ideas, for the triumph of truth and goodness, to the battle!
- Esoteric Medicine and Practical Magic


Also, if more learned Sexual Yoga, there would be no need for unnatural & harmful forms of "birth control".

:idea:
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Tarpa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:42 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Vulgar, materialistic, or profane science isn't all that advanced, really. Unless you call destroying the planet "advancement". I'm not saying that materialistic science hasn't done some good things, but it has been overall more destructive than positive, at least in this time and place (other planet's inhabitants might make much better use of physical technology).

As for Magic supposedly not being advanced, currently very few would even have the means to know if Magic is advanced:


In his epic book The Secret Teachings of All Ages, Manly P. Hall wrote:"...he who would fathom the depths of philosophic thought must familiarize himself with the teachings of those initiated priests designated as the first custodians of divine revelation. The Mysteries claimed to be the guardians of a transcendental knowledge so profound as to be incomprehensible save to the most exalted intellect and so potent as to be revealed with safety only to those in whom personal ambition was dead and who had consecrated their lives to the unselfish service of humanity. Both the dignity of these sacred institutions and the validity of their claim to possession of Universal Wisdom are attested by the most illustrious philosophers of antiquity, who were themselves initiated into the profundities of the secret doctrine and who bore witness to its efficacy.

"The question may legitimately be propounded: If these ancient mystical institutions were of such "great pith and moment," why is so little information now available concerning them and the arcana they claimed to possess? The answer is simple enough: The Mysteries were secret societies, binding their initiates to inviolable secrecy, and avenging with death the betrayal of their sacred trusts. Although these schools were the true inspiration of the various doctrines promulgated by the ancient philosophers, the fountainhead of those doctrines was never revealed to the profane. Furthermore, in the lapse of time the teachings became so inextricably linked with the names of their disseminators that the actual but recondite source--the Mysteries--came to be wholly ignored." - Manly P. Hall 33°


Hence the reason for Initiation/Samaya in Vajrayana.


What " ancient msytical institutions " is he referring to ? What " secret societies " ? By "ancient philosophers " I assume he is referring to the greeks and by inspiration I assume he is referring to egypt, as the greeks studied under egyptian priests and there was a great deal of intermingling going on regarding " wisdom ", wisdom in those days meant one thing - occult knowledge, during the 300 years the greeks occupied egypt.

Mysteries are typically what " high magick " or soteriological concerned magick called what it simply didn't understand, and the term is typically found in judeo / christian traditions, all western systems only approach wisdom, then they hit a wall they call it mystery, there are no mysteries.
There are many types of magick, and many areas within those types, as for looking for any " authentic " witchcraft tradition, magick tradition, any definitive point of origin, well good luck, there isn't a definitive one. So statements like the above quote can't be considered definitive in the least. By magick I mean the beginning of advanced magick not the caveman fertility and hunting cults and sympathetic magick.
Magick and witchcraft pre date the church so any account of origin from the church's time is apocryphal. Mr. halls quote sounds like a revisionists account of an origin of magick framed by the church, or ceremonial nonsense magicians and cults, wich are always very dubious in their priestly hierarchy hiding their " mysteries ", in their robes and swords, hiding their faces in their cowels, would you buy a car from such a person ?
Count how many times you find this word " mystery " in vajrayana and dzogchen. It's our own nature, it's the world, nobody can hide anything from us we dont already have, or are.
The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering
is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendence
of suffering.
Knots tied on space
are untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,
and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,
completing all qualities of the stages of the paths
may I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara
Tarpa
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:20 am
Location: Apache Junction, Arizona

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:02 am

Semantics.

And Manly P. Hall was no mere play dress-up armchair-philosopher who joined the Freemasons only to get away from the wife to have a few beers with "the good ol' boys" either. This is evident if you study his works.

Although unfortunately most Freemasons are mostly on the "play dress-up to get away from the wife to have a few beers with "the good ol' boys"" tip; and Manly P. Hall—as a Mason himself—even acknowledged it:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/roscrucia ... rigins.htm

Anyway, yes the Greeks did get a lot of if not most of what they knew from the Phoenicians and Khemetians; nonetheless, as Muata Ashby has written, the Khemetians did have systems of Initiation and their Temples had three main sections of which only Initiates at specific stages of Initiation could enter, respectively (the Temple of Solomon also had three main sections, so these are examples of the ancient origin of the main symbolic Three Degrees of the Blue Lodge, and the Three Chambers of Gnostic schools).

Anyhow, if you choose not to call what is learned upon Initiation "Mysteries", that's fine. I've met others who don't like the use of the term. But back in the days, a Lama or Mahasiddha wouldn't Initiate anyone who they felt was not ready to receive Initiation. So the Knowledge that the would-be-Initiate hadn't yet received would indeed be a mystery to them before receiving it. This is why I don't have much of a qualm with using the word "Mysteries", even though it's a term that I personally don't use very often.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:24 am

Huseng wrote:
What a gross generalization. You're painting every mystic, magician and yogi as a single depository for all inept superstitions.

That's quite unfair and likely offensive to many people here.


That's ironic. You've just accused me of gross generalizing and then made a gross generalization. And it's a straw man to boot. Please do not assign me an offensive position I do not hold and then accuse me of being offensive.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby underthetree » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:27 am

I don't really get this debate. Surely it's a matter of 'Render unto Caesar.' The mystics take care of the ineffable, the doctors, physicists, chemists et al take care of the physical.

The borders should be as distinct as oil and vinegar. It's where they start to bleed together that the cranks gather.
User avatar
underthetree
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: UK

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:29 am

Huseng wrote:
catmoon wrote:
It's true we are destroying the planet. And technology has been the means. But if you want to go back to waving vulture bones at people to cure a toothache, if you think we would be better off losing our lives to smallpox, tuberculosis, diptheria, the plague and on and on... you're welcome to it.


And who is waving vulture bones at people to cure a toothache? Do they represent all non-mainstream medical traditions?


No it does not. If Malcolm tells me to take some berries or something for a backache I would not be surprised if they worked. On the other hand, if he told me he can walk on water, I'd have to see it to believe it.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby Tarpa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:39 am

Ah, the freemasons, okay now we know the perspective of the quote.

Okay it's the Rosy Cross -Templar Knights-Masons- O.T.O. lets dress up and worship Baphomet bunch, and the..........head.
Masons Solomonic magick trip, swords and all, biblical magick, judeao / christian ceremonial magick, as I suspected.

This is completely irrelevant to witchcraft and magick was around long before this lot.
They are very influential in the occult world of course, some people use their stuff, some use some of it, some use none.
This is ceremonial magick, mostly solomonic, egyptian, cabalistic, etc., all of them have rosicrucian influence, but this is not witchcraft per se, and certainly not considered essential or central in witchcraft in any way, and definitely not the origin of magick, nobody sets up one occult tradition against the next or claims one is " all knowing " or the source, this is simply unheard of in occult circles, like trying to make a magick monotheism, nobody does this, it's not religious, and to the vast majority of practitioners not soteriological, ceremonial magicians are a strange bunch but even they don't do this, the history of magick has always been a homogenization, if it works use it, pragmatism was / is the paradigm, not religious or soteriological or philosophical constructions, magick is whatever works from wherever and whenever, practitioners are inherently open minded regarding the art.

In any case the masons rites are not so mysterious and you can obtain them for yourself, you can also learn a great deal about Masonic and Templar Knights rites by reading the O.T.O.'s rites, initiation into O.T.O. also automatically attained to 3rd degree mason. As for egyptian, enochian, khabalha, etc. you can easily obtain those as well, and the same with the purported to be Solomonic grimoires, all of wich I have right here. They are mainly necromantic, conjuring demons, lists of demons, sigils, seals, etc. grimoires, if you think that's a mystery to attain to be my guest.
You see the thing with the masons............king solomon didn't build that temple with human hands, he was known for subjugating and binding demons, so the story goes, this is all biblical stuff, it's irrelevant to me.
Worldy magick is really very simple and has nothing to do with judeo / christian myths.

Any talk of people or priests withholding " mysteries " or secret knowledge from unworthy, stupid, morally destitute, mere mortals or whatever on a Buddhist board is blasphemy, as it should be. You're really burning the Buddha flag with that one.
Nobody can give us something we are.
Last edited by Tarpa on Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
The nonexistence of the transcendence of suffering
is what the protector of the world has taught as the transcendence
of suffering.
Knots tied on space
are untied by space itself.

May I never be seperated from perfect masters in all lives,
and delightfully experiencing the magnificent dharma,
completing all qualities of the stages of the paths
may I quickly attain the state of Vajradhara
Tarpa
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:20 am
Location: Apache Junction, Arizona

Re: Dharma and Magic: is the latter necessary?

Postby muni » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:58 am

Here a magic: the devoted practicioner with a tooth of an animal imaging it was a tooth of the Buddha and awakened.

This is magic: master *** student / Dzogchen..........., deities........


Coming first on internet I typed words, and then jumped away from the screen and was staring with wide spread eyes how these letters came on the forum. But that wasn't all! It went worse, there came an answer on it!
Someone told me: thats' normal!
Normal? Not at all, it was magic!

The dependency-emptiness, if so called magic can show me that, well, that's magic. :bow:
muni
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

>