Released shiné (from ChNN)?

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Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:03 am

Came upon this quote on http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/07/turiya-vs-dzogchen.html:

The witnessing state is equivalent to stabilized shamatha (shiné), once shamatha is stabilized one is essentially proficient in "really good dualistic mindfulness" (as you said). After stabilized shiné, next step is released shiné and once released shiné is achieved and stabilized, one is said to be officially practicing dzogchen.

"When you have achieved released shiné and remain in the continuation of this state, you have finally become a dzogchen practitioner."
- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu


I can't find that quote anywhere, nor anything online about released shiné. Does anyone know anything about it, or have any idea which book of his I should buy to learn?

Presumably it has something to do with releasing dualistic grasping, or with recognizing mind essence, but I'd like to move past "presumably" :)
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby Sönam » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:07 am

"... to learn or apply the practice of Dzogchen, or to be in the real state of Dzogchen, the principle is not only that we sit quietly somewhere practicing Shine. Shine is useful and important, but it is not of ultimate importance. Shine, or the state of emptiness, is ultimately only a kind of experience. And in the Dzogchen teachings, there are methods that are much more important than ordinary Shine. People generally do not understand these things. When they speak about Shine, they talk as if they consider it to be a supreme practice. But this is simply not true."
- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu - Dzogchen Teachings -

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby rai » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:18 am

hi ,

the quote comes from "An Introduction to the Practice of Contemplation". it is a step-by-step practice manual. there is a whole chapter about released shine.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=42
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:57 pm

rai wrote:hi ,

the quote comes from "An Introduction to the Practice of Contemplation". it is a step-by-step practice manual. there is a whole chapter about released shine.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=42


Thanks! Guessing they won't let me buy it unless I've had transmission from ChNN...

After emailing the blogger, there's a snippet posted now at the bottom of that post. In another thread here, I was also told to look for the translations "shiné without focus" and "shiné that delights the tathagathas." In neither case am I finding useful "instructions," but the posted snippet gives me a hint :)
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby oldbob » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:18 pm

monktastic wrote:
rai wrote:hi ,

the quote comes from "An Introduction to the Practice of Contemplation". it is a step-by-step practice manual. there is a whole chapter about released shine.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=42


Thanks! Guessing they won't let me buy it unless I've had transmission from ChNN...

After emailing the blogger, there's a snippet posted now at the bottom of that post. In another thread here, I was also told to look for the translations "shiné without focus" and "shiné that delights the tathagathas." In neither case am I finding useful "instructions," but the posted snippet gives me a hint :)


Dear monktastic, all, and All,

Since I've received Shine without transmission, I think that it is ok to pass it on in the same way. Please, old timers feel free to jump in if I get something wrong, or leave something out.

Beginning shine uses concentration on an object, such as concentrating on a small 2-3", white Tibetan letter ah, placed on a stick, about the same level as your eyes when you are sitting, and placed at a comfortable distance away from you. Then, you train your mind to concentrate on this object, for as long as it feels comfortable. Many short sessions are better than forcing yourself. When your mind rests easily on an object, then gently relax your focus so that there is no single object in focus. Your eyes are open, your senses are open but there is no object in focus. You relax your focus by gently dropping your focus back.

For example, if you were in a room with a wall about 20 feet away from you, you would gently relax your focus to about 15 (not exact - just has to work) feet away from you. Everything that was in front of your eyes is still there but you are no longer focusing on a single object. This is an analogy to the mind looking at itself, but again you don't call it this or comment on this. You watch it, and let it go, as it arises. You cannot say that relaxing the focus is the cause of the state or vice-versa. It is a non-dual experience. You can train yourself to rest in this non-dual state. PM, if you have any questions. Again, many short sessions are better than forcing yourself.

Then, when you take this state into movement through the Song of the Vajra, or Vajra Dance, or integrate with whatever arises, 24/7, then this is Dzogchen, but Dzogchen never calls itself Dzogchen, or anything else. Dzogchen does not know its own name. This is your name before you were born. :smile:

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health, and with success in all things. :heart:
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby username » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:31 am

Bob is right as also shamatha/shiney with or without support are taught in open books too. One of them containing some meditations from Dzogchen POV that are useful for advanced practitioners too is the one below, scroll down to Contents & click on Section 4 & Section 5:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Car ... 7H947C0WYC
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby oldbob » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:07 am

username wrote:Bob is right as also shamatha/shiney with or without support are taught in open books too. One of them containing some meditations from Dzogchen POV that are useful for advanced practitioners too is the one below, scroll down to Contents & click on Section 4 & Section 5:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Car ... 7H947C0WYC



:bow: :bow: :bow: to all the blazing wisdoms lit from the incomparable Kar-Ning sun of Dharma, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

Re P58: There are also practices where it is ok to tilt your head back a little, or roll your eyes all the way up into your head.
(Watch ChNNR very carefully.)

The key point is to leave all the senses just as they are. :twothumbsup:


May all the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health, and with success in all things.
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby username » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:34 am

oldbob wrote: :bow: :bow: :bow: to all the blazing wisdoms lit from the incomparable Kar-Ning sun of Dharma, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

Re P58: There are also practices where it is ok to tilt your head back a little, or roll your eyes all the way up into your head.
(Watch ChNNR very carefully.)

Image
ImageImage


oldbob wrote:The key point is to leave all the senses just as they are. :twothumbsup:

Image

oldbob wrote:May all the Dzogchen Masters live long, in good health, and with success in all things.


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Naldjor/280100425371178

.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:19 pm

username wrote:Bob is right as also shamatha/shiney with or without support are taught in open books too. One of them containing some meditations from Dzogchen POV that are useful for advanced practitioners too is the one below, scroll down to Contents & click on Section 4 & Section 5:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Car ... 7H947C0WYC


Tsoknyi Rinpoche makes it clear that shiney without support is distinct from shiney without focus:
Q: Could you please explain a bit more about shamatha without focus?
A: The terms that we use are "shamatha with support" and "shamathat without support." In both of these cases, there is a focus.


ChNNR's "released shine" is a step beyond this, where there is not just no support, but no focus. As I understand it, even in unsupported shamatha, there is a sense of abiding, and that's what must be released to transition to Dzogchen practice.

Much brouhaha is made over the fact that many practitioners believe they are practicing free from focus, when they are really practicing "mere" shamatha without support. That's why I'm looking for more details :) My current best understanding is that one should simply progressively release the grasping that is inherent in shamatha. For example:

What is the difference between the real state of rigpa and the imitation? Check whether or not there is any clinging, any sense of keeping hold of something. With conceptual rigpa you notice a sense of trying to keep a state, trying to maintain a state, trying to nurture a state. There is a sense of hope or fear and also a sense of being occupied. Understand? The keeping means there’s a sense of protecting, of not wanting to lose it, in the back of the mind. This is not bad, it’s good, and for some people there’s no way around training like that in the beginning. Through training in this way, that conceptual aspect becomes increasingly refined and clarified. So you practice more, more, more. Now you have more of a sense of openness, but still you’re holding this openness. All right, then, let the openness go. Let’s say that after two months you let it go. But still you’re staying within the openness—so then you practice letting go of the staying. And somehow there is still a remnant of wanting to achieve it again. So you let that go as well, and slowly again let it go, let it go, until you become very much ‘just there,’ and finally very free and easy.


It could be that I'm trying too hard to make a distinction between unsupported shamatha and beginning Dzogchen, and that really, it's all one long process of releasing ever more subtle grasping from the former. The point at which it can be called the latter may be arbitrary. Can anyone confirm? Or is there some fixed divide before and after which practice should proceed differently?
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby username » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:54 pm

I know as I have read that closed book 3 times which is not to be discussed publicly as you do & you do not read carefully what I wrote, jumping to an erroneous conclusion:

username wrote:Bob is right as also shamatha/shiney with or without support are taught in open books too.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:09 pm

username wrote:I know as I have read that closed book 3 times which is not to be discussed publicly as you do & you do not read carefully what I wrote, jumping to an erroneous conclusion:

username wrote:Bob is right as also shamatha/shiney with or without support are taught in open books too.


Apologies for misunderstanding. Nonetheless, in case Bob or any other reader was not distinguishing the two, I think it's useful that the distinction be called out.

And I'm sorry for openly discussing ChNNR's restricted work. I will gladly drop the subject. If there is any other open work that discusses the transition from shamatha without support to shamatha without focus, that would still be much appreciated. If not, I will still attempt to cobble it together from various sources. Until I have a definitive answer, I will continue to try to "release" my shamatha in the only way I know how, by releasing the "act" of meditating.

Kind thanks,
Monktastic
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby username » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:33 pm

No problem. In Dzogchen all is ideally integrated constantly. Also, one can also listen to ChNN's regular teachings on Trekcho too. I was only reading in another book of his a few days ago though that Trekcho is not to be discussed openly either but then he is teaching regularly. Good luck.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby Skywalker » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:43 pm

One of my teachers has told me about releasing Zhine. At first meditating or concentrating on an object, I use a candle flame. Step 2 is now to become aware of the subject, i.e. your "self". Step 3 is to now concetrate on the space between you and the object. Step 4, patiently wait for recognition that the space between you and the object is luminous. This happens only when subject and object disappear. That is good advice somebody posted about releasing the grasping. I will take that to heart.
:namaste:

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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:40 am

Skywalker wrote:One of my teachers has told me about releasing Zhine. At first meditating or concentrating on an object, I use a candle flame. Step 2 is now to become aware of the subject, i.e. your "self". Step 3 is to now concetrate on the space between you and the object. Step 4, patiently wait for recognition that the space between you and the object is luminous. This happens only when subject and object disappear. That is good advice somebody posted about releasing the grasping. I will take that to heart.


Thanks!

FWIW, I think the only advice about releasing grasping in this thread was posted by me. Of course, don't take seriously anything this (pre-)novice has to say on the matter, but that Tsoknyi Rinpoche quote I posted on releasing is obviously golden!

One way of looking at it seems to be this. There are many types of grasping and things to grasp, and they are ever more subtle. There's the "maintaining the meditation" grasping; subject-object duality; grasping onto "the now"; hope and fear; nurturing and protecting; holding openness; "staying with" openness; wanting it; etc. These are all examples from texts.

Until they are all gone, I guess it is not true rigpa. But Tsoknyi R. speaks of progressing from "ordinary mind / natural mind" to "baby rigpa" to authentic rigpa, by releasing ever more subtle grasping. It sounds to me like after the first two graspings above are relatively released, one has not even started to practice Dzogchen; after that, one starts "officially" practicing and progressively (or suddenly!) releases those and the rest entirely.

But I think the key word there is "relatively" released: one does not have to be perfectly free of the "I am meditating" sense or subject-object duality to start practicing. That sounds like it would require deep realization of anatta. Instead, they should be quieted down to a "sufficient" level. That is, while one is meditating, if one is rarely entertaining the thought (or sense) of "I am meditating" and especially "I am meditating on that," then one is still practicing.

Does anyone who actually knows something care to comment?
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby oldbob » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:23 am

oldbob wrote:
monktastic wrote:
rai wrote:hi ,

the quote comes from "An Introduction to the Practice of Contemplation". it is a step-by-step practice manual. there is a whole chapter about released shine.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=42


Thanks! Guessing they won't let me buy it unless I've had transmission from ChNN...

After emailing the blogger, there's a snippet posted now at the bottom of that post. In another thread here, I was also told to look for the translations "shiné without focus" and "shiné that delights the tathagathas." In neither case am I finding useful "instructions," but the posted snippet gives me a hint :)


Dear monktastic, all, and All,

Since I've received Shine without transmission, I think that it is ok to pass it on in the same way. Please, old timers feel free to jump in if I get something wrong, or leave something out.

Beginning shine uses concentration on an object, such as concentrating on a small 2-3", white Tibetan letter ah, placed on a stick, about the same level as your eyes when you are sitting, and placed at a comfortable distance away from you. Then, you train your mind to concentrate on this object, for as long as it feels comfortable. Many short sessions are better than forcing yourself. When your mind rests easily on an object, then gently relax your focus so that there is no single object in focus. Your eyes are open, your senses are open but there is no object in focus. You relax your focus by gently dropping your focus back.

For example, if you were in a room with a wall about 20 feet away from you, you would gently relax your focus to about 15 (not exact - just has to work) feet away from you. Everything that was in front of your eyes is still there but you are no longer focusing on a single object. This is an analogy to the mind looking at itself, but again you don't call it this or comment on this. You watch it, and let it go, as it arises. You cannot say that relaxing the focus is the cause of the state or vice-versa. It is a non-dual experience. You can train yourself to rest in this non-dual state. PM, if you have any questions. Again, many short sessions are better than forcing yourself.

Then, when you take this state into movement through the Song of the Vajra, or Vajra Dance, or integrate with whatever arises, 24/7, then this is Dzogchen, but Dzogchen never calls itself Dzogchen, or anything else. Dzogchen does not know its own name. This is your name before you were born. :smile:

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health, and with success in all things. :heart:


:namaste:

Ya monktastic - I don't know anything either so I blah blah a lot, just for our amusement. Here is some more blah blah. :smile:

Go for what you know. I am agreeing with everything you are saying, and especially with what the incomparable Tsoknyi Rinpoche is saying. It all sounds right to me too.

What Skywalker wrote is also very accurate. It is another way into shine without focus.

The key point is to gently bring your mind back, when it wanders, and not to push yourself from your comfort zone, by forcing meditation too long.

Whatever thoughts arise, watch them and let them go as they arise, simultaneously. Sure it is natural to comment on your experience, and chain the thoughts, but this will slowly calm down.

You can also call this "releasing grasping."

Please re-read what I wrote above with the following in mind.

When I am using the word "focus" I am using focus in the mechanical visual/optical sense, not as meaning concentration or intentional concentration.

For me, all "shine without support" is "shine without focus." For me, "shine without support", with focus, is not contemplation. I think in the golden quote of Ven. Tsoknyi Rinpoche he is using focus in the sense of concentration, not visual "focus".

Try keeping your body still, your gaze fixed and keep the visual field in focus. When I try this, my eyes flit around the various objects in my visual field.

As soon as I relax my focus, contemplation arises: my gaze rests on itself.

Released shine is carrying the contemplation of "shine without focus" into all activity, or non activity, 24/7, whether focused or non-focused. It is tricky/impossible to talk about.

Dzogchen has nothing to say, and couldn't if it wanted to, yet everything is said appropriately. Isn't it amazing!

This is why the key point in learning Dzogchen is taking pointing out instruction from a Dzogchen Master. This is the one point that answers all.

:smile:
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Re: Released shiné (from ChNN)?

Postby monktastic » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:05 pm

So I was told to look for "shamatha that delights the tathagatas" as a synonym for "released shine," and indeed Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche uses the former to describe the final type of shamatha used in Mahamudra. Tsele Namtok Rangdrol indicates that this does lead to the realization of one-pointedness, and the attainment of the first bhumi, whereupon true insight blazes forth. Another synonym I've found is "supreme shamatha," as in this nice quote:

Therefore, do not inhibit any experience
Such as the six sense impressions,
And don't stray into fixating or indulging.
If you endeavor in this supreme shamatha
Of resting loosely in this composure of naturalness,

You have the experiences of movement, attainment,
Familiarization, stability, and perfection.


I.e., it's just another way of describing resting in the natural state.

And there seem to be two similar but slightly different approaches, both requiring a stable base of unsupported shine. One is to start doing shine and explicitly "release" it. The other, commonly found in Mahamudra manuals, is to simply totally relax (but ensure that presence of mind is not lost).

Come to think of it, these approaches seem to also be covered slightly differently by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, in his "tightening and loosening" practices. One transitions between the two, depending on if one is too tense or too loose.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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