Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby genkaku » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:44 pm

zen has nothing to do with ''common sense''


After a number of decades of practice, this makes no sense to me except perhaps in some fairy-tale intellectual realm.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:47 pm

Astus wrote:Matylda,

I think the key difference in interpretation is that you say "If I follow the master I follow his teaching.", while many follow not the teachings but rather the teacher. This is of course failing the instruction of the four reliances. And when they follow the person, his acts become great concern. It also opens the door to all sorts of abuses of power.


Hmmm... yeah something like this. Well what do you mean by abuse of power? That teacher gives commands to his disciples? or what? since I heard and read it many times but do not understand it... do people mean they want their teacher to stand in the same line etc.? Teacher is basically a source of refuge, so how he can abuse power? Isn't it a Western term concerning just any kind of social or political abuse? how it can apply to Buddhism?

Well if people feel that way, then why they practice zen?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:51 pm

genkaku wrote:
zen has nothing to do with ''common sense''


After a number of decades of practice, this makes no sense to me except perhaps in some fairy-tale intellectual realm.


So what common sense are you going to protect and exercise??? What selflesness, which is a basis of zen has anything to do with ''common sense''? What kind of practice did you do for decades? If you want to practice common sense then do as you please, but leave behind zen, otherwise it will only harm you.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Astus » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:33 pm

Matylda,

Abuse of social status (i.e. power) is not a matter of being a Buddhist, Hindu, political or any other group. Within a personality cult one individual gains immense influence on others' lives, and such a person then uses his position to his personal advantage while at the same time harming others. And the harm done is not necessarily against the law, but mental and emotional scars can take even longer to heal than physical ones. It is like being cheated by one's friend or spouse. In fact, comparing such a teacher to a bad parent seems quite appropriate. The difference here is that adult men reduce themselves to ignorant children and raise the teacher to the status of a heavenly father.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby genkaku » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:35 am

selflesness, which is a basis of zen


Intellectually, maybe this is OK.

Otherwise, it is like feeding rat poison to a beloved child.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:46 pm

Astus wrote:Matylda,

Abuse of social status (i.e. power) is not a matter of being a Buddhist, Hindu, political or any other group. Within a personality cult one individual gains immense influence on others' lives, and such a person then uses his position to his personal advantage while at the same time harming others. And the harm done is not necessarily against the law, but mental and emotional scars can take even longer to heal than physical ones. It is like being cheated by one's friend or spouse. In fact, comparing such a teacher to a bad parent seems quite appropriate. The difference here is that adult men reduce themselves to ignorant children and raise the teacher to the status of a heavenly father.


This i cannot comprehend.. what do you mean by personality cult? I never seen it in Japan with exception of some stupid new religions or cults, like Om shinri kyo... of Asahara Shoko. But in zen??? where? when? and who?! It is impossible in zen. At least in Japanese zen.

maybe it is problem in the West but I have never seen, met or heard about it in zen circles in Japan... yes of course drinking, sex, or whatever, those things are, were and will be there. Nobody cares in fact.. But what it has to do with personality cult??? Disciples just do not question it, or if someone does not like it just leaves and goes without saying anything... if anyone is disturbed then those are mostly people who are already emotionally disturbed, or have some personality disorder, but those are less then few. it is only free choice. Did Shimano exercised personality cult? Or he just did things like sex, drugs or drinking what people did not like and tried to stop him or got angry, since he was not in their frame of saint or ''enlightened''?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:00 pm

genkaku wrote:
selflesness, which is a basis of zen


Intellectually, maybe this is OK.

Otherwise, it is like feeding rat poison to a beloved child.



Let me ask you, you were in DBZ for 9 years, right? But did you ever went to the zen monastery for real training? Actually you have to show some quality when you enter, since you would be brutalized... I mean there is nothing wrong with it, just if there is no readiness to drop the self, i.e. for selflessness, then there is no space for zen training. If for you it is only ''maybe intellectually'' it only clearly shows that you never been for any zen training in its real and true sense. Zen in the sense of steep and quick path to enlightenment.

In a monastery you would be discouraged already by waiting for hours and the entrance calling for any attention... believe me. And the monk or teacher in charge would quickly show you, your own lack of spirit for serious zen training. And once you enter this stream you have no time to even think if your teacher is ok or not ok... how one can preoccupy oneself with such crazy question while trying to drop the self, or to be selfless???

No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...

One point.. I have seen in Japan for years many Westerners coming and.. complaining.. even when they were under most accomplished master. And always they had their own important agenda.. yes, that is true. With Shimano sounds so similar...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:55 pm

Matylda wrote:
This i cannot comprehend.. what do you mean by personality cult? I never seen it in Japan...


Read Brian Victoria's "Zen at War".
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:20 pm

Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Jikan » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:00 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


Is an ad-hom attack like this necessary or useful?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:27 am

Jikan wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


Is an ad-hom attack like this necessary or useful?


Some regard the results of commonsense to be rather questionable. In this sense to not possess that which produces questionable results would be a good thing? and if this is the case then how can attributing good qualities be considered an attack?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby KeithA » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:06 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


Shel, we have disagreed on a few points over the years, but on this one we are in complete agreement. Wow. :twothumbsup:

Take care,
Keith
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby KeithA » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:08 pm

Jikan wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


Is an ad-hom attack like this necessary or useful?


Sooner or later, racism and regionalism must be called out. :thanks:
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:57 pm

Mr. G wrote:
Matylda wrote:
This i cannot comprehend.. what do you mean by personality cult? I never seen it in Japan...


Read Brian Victoria's "Zen at War".


Yes I read it, so what?
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Matylda » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:00 pm

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


It is not really relevant if I possess it or not, what is important is if we really understand what does it mean to study zen with a master... personal attacks are just personal attack and do not answer the issue, if Shimano lineage is legitimate or not.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Mr. G » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:15 pm

Matylda wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
Matylda wrote:
This i cannot comprehend.. what do you mean by personality cult? I never seen it in Japan...


Read Brian Victoria's "Zen at War".


Yes I read it, so what?


So now you see that personality cults exist in Japan, and in Zen lineages.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby genkaku » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:41 pm

On the topic of common sense, which I will grant is open to a number of interpretations...

Common sense suggests we not step in dog shit on the sidewalk in front of us.

But it also strikes me as common sensical to observe, for example, that all intellectual, emotional and belief structures exist in the past ... are utterly dependent on the past. And that the past simply cannot be grasped or revised ... it's over. It's past. Intellect, emotion, belief, etc. are very near and dear to the human heart and inspire a lot of good and a lot of bad activities.

BUT...

At the same time than anyone might be wedded in spades to intellect, emotion, belief ... still those very same people exist in the present. There simply is no other option. The present cannot be escaped, however much anyone might flee into the past of intellect, emotion, belief, etc.

If this framework strikes anyone as common-sensical, then there is a friction that erupts: How can anyone be at peace in the inescapable present if all credited activity relies on a past that cannot be grasped? Sure, the intellectually-adroit will have a hundred answers ... all of them quite intellectually satisfying perhaps. But no matter how intellectually or emotionally satisfying, peace remains out of reach. Trying to live at peace in the present by relying on a past that cannot be grasped? It sounds like the opposite of common sense to me.

Just my take.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby Jikan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:26 pm

KeithA wrote:Sooner or later, racism and regionalism must be called out. :thanks:


This is true. Generally, though, it's better to "play the ball, not the man" if you can. That's why I asked in the first place...
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby shel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:41 pm

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:No wonder Shimano got problems in this american protestant puristic surrounding :) I guess he was very kind to people :) maybe too kind...


I don't think anyone can accuse you of possessing commonsense, Matylda.


It is not really relevant if I possess it or not, what is important is if we really understand what does it mean to study zen with a master... personal attacks are just personal attack and do not answer the issue, if Shimano lineage is legitimate or not.

I thought you might not consider being attributed with a lack of that which produces rather questionable results a personal attack. I was wrong and I apologize. It seems that you believe common sense is a positive attribute after all.

Shimano's lineage seems to be as legitimate as any other of it's kind. He would need to be disrobed (or whatever the correct term or protocol is) in order to become illegitimate.
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Re: Is Eido Tai Shimano's lineage legitimate?

Postby KeithA » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Jikan wrote:
KeithA wrote:Sooner or later, racism and regionalism must be called out. :thanks:


This is true. Generally, though, it's better to "play the ball, not the man" if you can. That's why I asked in the first place...


Yes, a fair point, Jikan. Thank you.
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