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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Aemilius wrote:

The Wikipedia article is only a summary, not a translation.

Aemilius wrote:
The Fourth root downfall has previously been translated as: "Saying that the Mahayana sutras are not a teaching of the Buddha constitutes a root downfall". Rulu's translation is too mild and a watered down version of it. Your Yogachara bhumi sastra comes probably from the same bureau?

I looked at the Sanskrit manuscript as well as the English translation (from Sanskrit & Tibetan) by Mark Tatz. Here's Tatz' translation of the fourth pārājayikasthānīyadharma:

    To repudiate the bodhisattva collection and, on his own or echoing someone else, to devote himself to counterfeits of the good doctrine, and then to enjoy, to show, and to establish those counterfeits of the good doctrine, is the fourth event that is "grounds for defeat" for the bodhisattva.

And here's Rulu's translation:

    If a Bodhisattva maligns Bodhisattva teachings, or pronounces supposedly similar dharmas and pretentiously establishes himself on such dharmas, which come from his own or someone else’s understanding, it is called the fourth parājika.

While Tatz' translation is more precise, I think that the differences between the two is merely due to Rulu relying exclusively on the Chinese text and not because of any intentional attempt to misrepresent the content of the fourth pārājayikasthānīyadharma.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:58 am 
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The text I linked to is a valid translation of it, there are other texts with similar content, same kind if wording exists in tibetan tradition of it, I have seen and read it many times.
There has occured a divine intervention. Rulu's translation has suddenly changed, his translation of the first four precepts has changed mysteriously. Before there was something wordy and complicated that avoided saying anything meaningful. This new translation is terse and exact. Only possible explanation is that divine bodhisattvas have produced it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:09 am 
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If some one doubts the existence of the mentioned bodhisattva precept, I have found in Alex Berzin's archives a teaching about Bodhisattva vows. In the vows that belong to the category of Discriminating Awareness we have eight vows, fifth one (Forsaking the Mahayana Vehicle) begins:" The sixth root bodhisattva downfall is claiming that the Mahayana texts are not Buddha's words. Etc..."

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/practice_material/vows/bodhisattva/secondary_bodhisattva_pledges.html

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:42 am 
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Aemilius wrote:
There has occured a divine intervention. Rulu's translation has suddenly changed, his translation of the first four precepts has changed mysteriously. Before there was something wordy and complicated that avoided saying anything meaningful. This new translation is terse and exact. Only possible explanation is that divine bodhisattvas have produced it.

I think it's more likely that Rulu simply worked on it more and produced a better translation.

Aemilius wrote:
If some one doubts the existence of the mentioned bodhisattva precept, I have found in Alex Berzin's archives a teaching about Bodhisattva vows. In the vows that belong to the category of Discriminating Awareness we have eight vows, fifth one (Forsaking the Mahayana Vehicle) begins:" The sixth root bodhisattva downfall is claiming that the Mahayana texts are not Buddha's words. Etc..."

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/practice_material/vows/bodhisattva/secondary_bodhisattva_pledges.html

This isn't a translation either.


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