Samatha to See Gods.

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:01 am

Monks may be able to see devas and so on because they are meditating 20 hours a day over months and years. I'm not trying to give a diagnosis to you but I remember in another thread that you have had issues with schizophrenia.
'' What sort of spirits could be diagnosed from this, and how? I ask because of my personal issues with schizophrenia.''
I don't know what type of issues. May be you are interested in schizophrenia from an academic point if view. That is why this discussion is problematic. If you see devas then o.k I'm not debating that. But that you don't do as much Samantha as the forest monks do then there is a question in my mind as to whether the cause of your visions are related to meditation. It makes me feel bad to say this. I'm sorry.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:46 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Monks may be able to see devas and so on because they are meditating 20 hours a day over months and years. I'm not trying to give a diagnosis to you but I remember in another thread that you have had issues with schizophrenia.
'' What sort of spirits could be diagnosed from this, and how? I ask because of my personal issues with schizophrenia.''
I don't know what type of issues. May be you are interested in schizophrenia from an academic point if view. That is why this discussion is problematic. If you see devas then o.k I'm not debating that. But that you don't do as much Samantha as the forest monks do then there is a question in my mind as to whether the cause of your visions are related to meditation. It makes me feel bad to say this. I'm sorry.


Problematic for you. I think you already know my answer to the question.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Will » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:56 pm

Son will answer (or not), but if he was born psychic, with some sort of higher vision, then he would have been burned at the stake hundreds of years ago. Nowadays, in the West, we often call such clairvoyants nuts or charlatans. Perhaps 'schizo' is what some shrink called him - thus his 'issues'.

It is a shame modern folk are so narrow-minded, because some natural mystics or psychics are that way because of past lives of spiritual practice. Not all are imbalanced and require treatment or well-meaning advice.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:48 pm

:namaste: :twothumbsup: :buddha1: :heart:
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:43 pm

Good. Glad to see I'm wrong about this.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:59 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Good. Glad to see I'm wrong about this.

Quite a few of us are wrong about this.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby futerko » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:20 pm

Huseng wrote:...the present mainstream cosmology of materialism claims this is impossible from a perspective of theory and hence they say such things cannot exist.

I agree. I would also add that the idea that we can and should try to normalize/standardize/universalize people's experiences and their way of making sense of that is also a feature of the needs of an industrialized society under a predominant worldview of scientific materialism.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:38 pm

Materialism means 'but I want'. This can have a spiritual dimension too.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:04 pm

I was just implying that it isn't very useful to talk about siddhis or powers so openly. This is what I have been taught. I am sorry if I seemed rude, obviously I am wrong.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:31 am

... And presumptuous... no harm or insult attended, I'll butt out now
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby NIRMAL2 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:13 pm

Son needs to see an Enlightened Guru to 'shut' his divine eye for about a year and go into some deep practice guided by the Guru to develop his wisdom.Then the Guru can 'reopen' his divine eye and for all I know, we might have a new Guru among us here.Son's case has been known to happen in this remote part of the world.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:15 am

nirmal wrote:Son needs to see an Enlightened Guru to 'shut' his divine eye for about a year and go into some deep practice guided by the Guru to develop his wisdom.Then the Guru can 'reopen' his divine eye and for all I know, we might have a new Guru among us here.Son's case has been known to happen in this remote part of the world.


That is actually what I've been planning to do. There are no gurus of course, but there is always Buddha. The idea of closing or opening the eyes, I have always found to be confusing. They just seem to be a part of our mind normally, and yet we aren't normally aware of them. So, having an open eye is really just being aware in that sense. Those who have achieved it through meditation and effort, they can close and open it at will. It's different when your awareness is partly just a remainder awareness. What's the word...?
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby NIRMAL2 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:35 pm

nirmal wrote:
Son wrote:
nirmal wrote:Son needs to see an Enlightened Guru to 'shut' his divine eye for about a year and go into some deep practice guided by the Guru to develop his wisdom.Then the Guru can 'reopen' his divine eye and for all I know, we might have a new Guru among us here.Son's case has been known to happen in this remote part of the world.


That is actually what I've been planning to do. There are no gurus of course, but there is always Buddha. The idea of closing or opening the eyes, I have always found to be confusing. They just seem to be a part of our mind normally, and yet we aren't normally aware of them. So, having an open eye is really just being aware in that sense. Those who have achieved it through meditation and effort, they can close and open it at will. It's different when your awareness is partly just a remainder awareness. What's the word...?


As you have not achieved it through meditation,yours most probably came along from your past life. We have here our Younger Enlightened Guru whose case is somewhat like yours.He used to point to the sky and say,"Look at the beautiful rays of colorful light coming down from the sky." At times he would talk of some Chinese gods sitting under a tree or about devas and spirits.The people around him thought that something was wrong with him but actually he could see what others could not see.Some thought that he was mad.His parents took him to many mediums but no one could do anything for him.Finally he met my Guru and with a twist of his thumb, he temporarily closed his divine or heavenly eye.Then he guided him in meditation for about a year until he gained Enlightenment.An Enlightened Guru can guide you, and like Buddha who is always there, he cannot hand Enlightenment to you.You need guidance and some serious practice. I hope you meet the RIGHT Guru.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Will » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:53 pm

Nirmal, Kindly mention the names of the younger & older Gurus you write about.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Tiger » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:18 pm

For your information, "Devas" were the gods of the Indo-Aryans and "Ahuras" (Asuras) were the gods of the Iranian-Aryans, who both lived together in ancient history. Eventually a feud erupted between the two classes of gods and their worshipers which finally having resulted in the banishment of all Deva-worshipers towards the East (India). These Indo-Aryans later influenced the mythology of the newly forming religion of Buddhism.

Ahuras (Asuras) were normally the more virtuous ones who abstained from eating meat and taking intoxicants, where as Devas were passionate gods who indulged in all sensual pleasures. Ahuras never demanded animal to be sacrificed to them, where as Devas demanded sacrifice of animals.

English word "Devil" also is etymologically related with the same word "Dev" from which Indian "Devas" came up. So Devas were in fact the more evil ones.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby NIRMAL2 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:46 pm

Main article: Buddhist cosmology

The term deva does not refer to a natural class of beings, but is defined anthropocentrically to include all those beings more powerful or more blissful than humans. It includes some very different types of being; these types can be ranked hierarchically. The lowest classes of these beings are closer in their nature to human beings than to the higher classes of deva.

The devas fall into three classes depending upon which of the three dhātus, or "realms" of the universe they are born in.

The devas of the Ārūpyadhātu have no physical form or location, and they dwell in meditation on formless subjects. They achieve this by attaining advanced meditational levels in another life. They do not interact with the rest of the universe.

The devas of the Rūpadhātu have physical forms, but are sexless and passionless. They live in a large number of "heavens" or deva-worlds that rise, layer on layer, above the earth. These can be divided into five main groups:

The Śuddhāvāsa devas are the rebirths of Anāgāmins, Buddhist religious practitioners who died just short of attaining the state of Arhat (Brahma Sahampati, who appealed to the newly enlightened Buddha to teach, was an Anagami from a previous Buddha[1]). They guard and protect Buddhism on earth, and will pass into enlightenment as Arhats when they pass away from the Śuddhāvāsa worlds. The highest of these worlds is called Akaniṣṭha.

The Bṛhatphala devas remain in the tranquil state attained in the fourth dhyāna.

The Śubhakṛtsna devas rest in the bliss of the third dhyāna.

The Ābhāsvara devas enjoy the delights of the second dhyāna.

The Brahmā devas (or simply Brahmās) participate in the more active joys of the first dhyāna. They are also more interested in and involved with the world below than any of the higher devas, and sometimes intervene with advice and counsel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_%28Buddhism%29

In the canonical formula for contemplation of the Buddha, nine epithets of the Awakened One are mentioned. One of these, likely to be overlooked, is sattha devamanussanam, "teacher of gods and humans." The present essay focuses on one aspect of this epithet: the Buddha's role as teacher of the devas or gods. In the pages to follow we will carefully consider the instructions and techniques he used when teaching beings of divine stature. If we study these teachings we will gain deeper understanding of how we should purify our own minds, and by studying the responses of the gods we can find models for our own behavior in relation to the Master and his teaching.

Many religious leaders consider themselves prophets whose authority stems from an Almighty God, but as our epithet implies, the Buddha's relationship to divinity was very different. He instructed deities, as well as humans, on how to end all suffering (dukkha) by eradicating ignorance and other unwholesome states. The gods came to the Buddha to request instruction and clarification, to support his Sasana or Dispensation, to praise his incomparable qualities, and to pay homage at his feet. Devas and brahmas are often mentioned throughout the Pali canon. They regularly manifest themselves on the human plane and participate in many episodes of the Buddha's career. Some of these higher beings are foolish, some exceedingly wise; some are barely distinguishable from well-off people, others are extremely powerful, long-lived, and magnificent. The multiple connections between the Buddha and beings of the higher planes can inspire meditators to develop the Noble Eightfold Path that leads to the end of suffering.

This essay will explore: (1) the Buddha's direct instructions to devas and how they can help human meditators practice the Dhamma; (2) how devas, out of gratitude and faith, honor the Buddha and support his Dispensation; and (3) the process of attaining liberation for devas, brahmas, and humans.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el414.html
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:21 pm

Interesting, Tiger.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says that if one doesn't or can't eat-meat/drink-alcohol with Awareness, that it's better to not do it at all (Vajrayana in general says that eating-meat/drinking-alcohol can be Compassionate; although there are other threads where this is discussed at length).

Anyway, an early mentor (not a Guru per-sé)—who posted variously, I believe, as God Body, Knowledge, Ausar-Ra—wrote extensively about how the Irano-Aryans venerated/were Ashura's or Asura's, and how the Indo-Aryans venerated/were Deva's or Sura's or Shura's. His idea was that the Irano-Aryans/Asura's/Ashura's were much kinder to the (Proto?)Elamites than the Indo-Aryans/Deva's/Shura's/Sura's were to the (Proto?)Dravidians.

He based a lot of his conclusions on the following types of old Masonic writings:


"Anacalypsis Vol 1 + 2" by Godfrey Higgins
"Gerald Massey's Lectures"
"Book of the Beginings" by Gerald Massey
"Natural Genesis"
"Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man"
"The Royal Secret"
"Morals and Dogma" Albert Pike
"Irano Aryan Dieties and their worship in the Zend Avesta" by Albert Pike
"Indo Aryan Dieties and their worship in the Rig Veda" Albert Pike
"Lectures of the Arya" Albert Pike
"Celestial Ship of the North" E. Valentia Straiton
"Rama & Moses: The Aryan Cycle & the Mission of Israel (1923)" by Edward Schure
"The Hermeneutic Interpretation of the Social State of Man and the Destiny of the Adamic Race" by Fabre D'Olivet
"Herbraic Tongue Restored" Vol 1 + 2, by Fabre D'Olivet
"Isis Unveiled" & "The Secret Doctrine" by H.P. Blavatsky
"The Book of the Glory of the Blacks Over the Whites" by Al Jahiz
"The Destruction of Black Civilization" by Chancellor williams
"Jesus and Moses are Buried in India" by Gene Matlocke
"The Last Atlantis Book You'll Ever Read" by Gene Matlocke
"Siva and Serpent worship" by Staniland Clarke
"Phallic and Nature Worship"
"Symbollism" by Macoy
"The Arcane Schools" by John Yarker
"Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity and their Probable Relation to a still Older Civilization of the Ethiopians or Cushites of Arabia (1869)" by John D. Baldwin
And even: "Sexual Secrets: The Alchemy of Ecstacy" Nik Douglas & Penny Slinger


It was also his conviction that the Hebrew YHVH is actually Shiva (something that Occultists basically agree with), and that Siva or Shiva is the Yacub or Yakub (Jacob) of the Nation of Islam & Nation of Gods ands Earths who first started eugenics in order to create the Caucasian race, Deva's, Devi's, or 'White Devils' via the intentional selective-breeding process. The gene that lacks melanin is recessive, yet the dominant genes containing melanin can be selectively-breeded out over time (see: Gregor Mendel's Punnett Squares).

Too bad his posts are long-gone from cyber-space. They were interesting.

He also recommended studying and practicing the Buddha Dharma. :buddha1:

I personally am more in agreeance with H.P. Blavatsky's view that the Aryans were not only Caucasian (many of them were mixed, perhaps even during the Aryan Mongolian-First-Subrace); and also that—while there's not much doubt that Aryans did kill many Dravidians—the Aryans peacefully integrated with and settled alongside with the Elamites/Dravidians. But maybe my idea is a romanticized one.

Ra Un Nefer Amen says that the Hebrews were largely Caucasian and that they were always foreign to Palestine; yet even so, he also says that most of the Biblical tales of the Hebrews invading & killing Palestinian natives, are not literal and did not happen for the most part. Either way, the contemporary Israeli's are obviously trying to re-enact the bloody Bible-stories by killing and pushing out Palestinians. Whether the Israeli Yiddish/Ashkenazi/Khazars are the actual descendants of the ancient Hebrews, I know not. Maybe the Tribe of Judah was Æthiopian-Palestinian though?

Anyhow, I think that Buddhism attributed a specific class of beings to the Deva-Loka simply in order to appeal to the conventions of the time & place, which happened to be largely 'Aryan'-dominated at the time.

As can be seen in my earlier posts in this thread, I don't doubt that there are beings in other dimensions who can't be ordinarily perceived with the physical senses.

P.S. Considering their Iranian connection, and that they do many things the opposite way that Buddhists do them (such as the direction that they circumambulate Mount Kailash for example) I'm surprised that the Bönpo's of Yungdrung Bön don't have the Deva's and Asura's reversed.

And speaking of the Elamites and Zhang-Zhung or Shang-Shung, I wonder if the Little Black Headed Man of Tibet (see: Samten Karmay) was possibly Sumerian, considering that the Sumerians were known as the Black-Headed People.

See also the thread in the Book-Review sub-forum called "Upasika Blavatsky".
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:57 pm

Correction:

It was not said that the Irano-Aryans themselves were Ashura's, but that the Elamites, Dravidians, Tamils, Sudra's, Dalit's, Chandala's, etc. were known as Asura's; and Aryan's in general were known as Deva's/Devi's. And that the Irano-Aryans were more sympathetic towards the Asura's than the Vedic Indo-Aryans were.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby Son » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:19 pm

Tiger wrote:For your information, "Devas" were the gods of the Indo-Aryans and "Ahuras" (Asuras) were the gods of the Iranian-Aryans, who both lived together in ancient history. Eventually a feud erupted between the two classes of gods and their worshipers which finally having resulted in the banishment of all Deva-worshipers towards the East (India). These Indo-Aryans later influenced the mythology of the newly forming religion of Buddhism.

Ahuras (Asuras) were normally the more virtuous ones who abstained from eating meat and taking intoxicants, where as Devas were passionate gods who indulged in all sensual pleasures. Ahuras never demanded animal to be sacrificed to them, where as Devas demanded sacrifice of animals.

English word "Devil" also is etymologically related with the same word "Dev" from which Indian "Devas" came up. So Devas were in fact the more evil ones.


This is word play though. Being aware of the history of the world devil, the word deva means shining one, so it isn't literally referring to "the evil ones." King Sakka is called a deva, is he not? Sakka is not evil. Asuras are sometimes called devas and devas sometimes asuras. It matters little, as long as you're aware you're referring to the malignant beings or the benign beings.
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Re: Samatha to See Gods.

Postby y1010 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:33 am

So, after all. All those words...what it is.
Did you succeed and did you have achieved something?
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