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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:40 pm 
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I have received teachings and empowerments from these two masters but can't sort out lineages in my poor brain.

Dzogchen Rinpoche's website describes him like this:

''His Eminence the 7th Dzogchen Rinpoche, Jigme Losel Wangpo

His Eminence the 7th Dzogchen Rinpoche, Jigme Losel Wangpo, is one of the highest lamas in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. He is the head of Dzogchen Monastery, one of the six major Nyingma monasteries, and the authentic holder of the Dzogchen lineage, the renowned Great Perfection or Great Completion teachings. ''

It mentions 'THE' Dzogchen lineage. Does that mean all other TB Dzogchen teachers regard him as their senior, or are there in fact other 'Dzogchen lineages' in TB or only other lineages which include some Dzogchen. Confusingly, it also mentions that his monastery is Nyingma, so maybe it means he is the authentic Dzogchen lineageholder within the Nyingma only?

He's a great teacher, btw. I didn't get the chance to clarify this last time he came to the UK.

I know Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's immediate teachers and the Adzom Drugpa connection, but not further back.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:55 pm 
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It's an incarnation lineage of the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, starting with Dzogchen Pema Rigdzin, in the 17th century.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
It's an incarnation lineage of the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, starting with Dzogchen Pema Rigdzin, in the 17th century.

Sönam


Yes, that's in his biog I quoted, but doesn't tell me how he relates to all the other Dzogchen teachers in TB or if 'the' Dozgchen lineage stands apart from the schools, is part of the Nyingma, or if he is at the head of them all, or not related to them at all. etc.

I guess a chart would be clearest, but I'll bet there isn't one! LOL :)

I have to admit that coming from the Gelugpa, all the lineages and termas people mention send me cross-eyed and there seems no idiot's guide to it all.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
It mentions 'THE' Dzogchen lineage.

Of course Dzogchen monastery holds one of the dzogchen lineages, mainly Longchen Nyingthig and Jater. Yeah and they also practice termas of Dodrubchen Rinpoche and I gues also Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje, plus Longchenpa´s teachings. The monastery is called Dzogchen but that does not mean that they only practice dzogchen teaching, most of their curriculum is actually made up of kyerim-dzogrim. Rushen, Semdzin, thregcho etc. are given mainly to students who have already completed the tantric parts of curriculum, if I get it right.
Imho Khatog is probably more dzogchen than Dzogchen. The Dzogchen lineage here means the lineage of teachings practiced in the Dzogchen monastery. I am not really sure, why the founders named the monastery Dzogchen, it might have been considered auspicious or something, but it does not have that much to do with the distribution of the actual teaching of atiyoga and its lineages. I mean to say that it does not mean that Dzogchen monastery is the sole holder of the dzogchen teaching.

Blue Garuda wrote:
Does that mean all other TB Dzogchen teachers regard him as their senior, or are there in fact other 'Dzogchen lineages' in TB or only other lineages which include some Dzogchen.

None of that.

Blue Garuda wrote:
Confusingly, it also mentions that his monastery is Nyingma, so maybe it means he is the authentic Dzogchen lineageholder within the Nyingma only?

Nope, he is the authentic holder of the teachings of Dzogchen monastery (including dzogchen teaching) and the monastery belongs to the Nyingma tradition. In fact it is one of the six main monasteries of Nyingma tradition.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Aha! This helps:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:20 pm 
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And before that:

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:25 pm 
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dzoki wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
It mentions 'THE' Dzogchen lineage.

Of course Dzogchen monastery holds one of the dzogchen lineages, mainly Longchen Nyingthig and Jater. Yeah and they also practice termas of Dodrubchen Rinpoche and I gues also Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje, plus Longchenpa´s teachings. The monastery is called Dzogchen but that does not mean that they only practice dzogchen teaching, most of their curriculum is actually made up of kyerim-dzogrim. Rushen, Semdzin, thregcho etc. are given mainly to students who have already completed the tantric parts of curriculum, if I get it right.
Imho Khatog is probably more dzogchen than Dzogchen. The Dzogchen lineage here means the lineage of teachings practiced in the Dzogchen monastery. I am not really sure, why the founders named the monastery Dzogchen, it might have been considered auspicious or something, but it does not have that much to do with the distribution of the actual teaching of atiyoga and its lineages. I mean to say that it does not mean that Dzogchen monastery is the sole holder of the dzogchen teaching.

Blue Garuda wrote:
Does that mean all other TB Dzogchen teachers regard him as their senior, or are there in fact other 'Dzogchen lineages' in TB or only other lineages which include some Dzogchen.

None of that.

Blue Garuda wrote:
Confusingly, it also mentions that his monastery is Nyingma, so maybe it means he is the authentic Dzogchen lineageholder within the Nyingma only?

Nope, he is the authentic holder of the teachings of Dzogchen monastery (including dzogchen teaching) and the monastery belongs to the Nyingma tradition. In fact it is one of the six main monasteries of Nyingma tradition.



That's really helpful. That places him in context very well. Thanks. :)

It was this phrase which threw me: ''the authentic holder of the Dzogchen lineage, the renowned Great Perfection or Great Completion teachings.''

I'm certainly going to attend again when he next visit the UK. :)

With respect to another teacher, how does Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche fit into the 'modern' chart from Longchenpa on ?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Sönam wrote:
It's an incarnation lineage of the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, starting with Dzogchen Pema Rigdzin, in the 17th century.

Sönam


Yes, that's in his biog I quoted, but doesn't tell me how he relates to all the other Dzogchen teachers in TB or if 'the' Dozgchen lineage stands apart from the schools, is part of the Nyingma, or if he is at the head of them all, or not related to them at all. etc.

I guess a chart would be clearest, but I'll bet there isn't one! LOL :)

I have to admit that coming from the Gelugpa, all the lineages and termas people mention send me cross-eyed and there seems no idiot's guide to it all.


:D Nyingma has so many lineages, that it would have to be an overly simplyfied guide. In general each terma cycle has its own lineage. Sometimes the corpus of one terma cycle amounts to prety much the volume of teachings in one of the sarma schools. For example Dudjom tersar has more than 20 volumes of teachings and these are mostly just texts by Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche, if we included all the later commentaries and other literature connected to Dudjom Tersar it might be well over 30 volumes. I saw some published collected works of Barom Kagyu and it was something like ten volumes, if I remember right. So if we look at the amount of the literature and the practices connected to that some of the terma lineages could kind of be considered a school in their own right. Of course everything is impermanent and not many terma lineages survive in the full extent over the time. So later new termas are discovered. Some terma lineages are more institutionalized while others are more independent - they are not tied to any particular monasteries and are only passed down as instructional lineage. In general in Nyingma there are 6 major monasteries which preserve some of the major terma lineages and the kama lineages. These are:

Palyul - they practice mainly Namcho cycle, termas of Ratna Lingpa and Longchen Nyingthig
Dordrag - mainly Jangter - termas of Rigdzin Godem, Tulku Zangpo Dragpa and other tertons
Shechen - Longchen Nyingthig, kama, Rangjung Pema Nyingthig (terma of Dilgo Khyentse), not sure what else they practice.
Mindroling - mainly termas of Terdag lingpa and Kama
Kathog - termas of Longsal Nyingpo, Dudul Dorje and Konchog Chidu (Jater - terma of Jatson Nyingpo)
Dzogchen - Longchen Nyingthig, Jater, Nyingthig Yazhi and whatever else.

Other lineages, that have their own centers include:
Peling - tradition of Pema Lingpa (mainly in Bhutan,) also thanks to Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche in the West now.
Chogling Tersar - termas of Chogyur Lingpa (seats in eastern Tibet, India and Nepal, also many centers in the west).
Dudjom Tersar - termas of Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche, it seems to me that they are pretty much everywhere now.
Ripa - they practice termas of Tagsham cycle and recent termas of Namkha Drime Rinpoche.

There are some terma lineages of Nyingma teachings outside of Nyingma school - such as Karma Nyingthig and termas of different Karmapas and other Kamtsang teachers (Pawo and Chagme Rinpoches, 6th Shamarpa etc.)in Karma Kagyu lineage. Drikung Yangzab and other termas of Drikung masters in Drikung Kagyu. Termas of Terchen Barwai Dorje in Barom Kagyu, etc. Termas of 5th Dalailama in Gelug lineage and I guess there would be some termas of Wandu Nyingpo in Sakya lineage.

In general most of these termas will include some practice of Guru Padmasambhava and his different forms, practice of yidam, like Avalokiteshvara, Amitayus, Vajrasattva, Vajrakila, Yamantaka or Hayagriva - I think these are most common and a practice of dakini like Simhamukha, Khrodikali or Vajravarahi. Then there will be also some dzogchen instruction.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
With respect to another teacher, how does Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche fit into the 'modern' chart from Longchenpa on ?
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Adzom_Drukpa

hi blue :smile:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:02 pm 
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dzoki wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Sönam wrote:
It's an incarnation lineage of the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, starting with Dzogchen Pema Rigdzin, in the 17th century.

Sönam


Yes, that's in his biog I quoted, but doesn't tell me how he relates to all the other Dzogchen teachers in TB or if 'the' Dozgchen lineage stands apart from the schools, is part of the Nyingma, or if he is at the head of them all, or not related to them at all. etc.

I guess a chart would be clearest, but I'll bet there isn't one! LOL :)

I have to admit that coming from the Gelugpa, all the lineages and termas people mention send me cross-eyed and there seems no idiot's guide to it all.


:D Nyingma has so many lineages, that it would have to be an overly simplyfied guide. In general each terma cycle has its own lineage. Sometimes the corpus of one terma cycle amounts to prety much the volume of teachings in one of the sarma schools. For example Dudjom tersar has more than 20 volumes of teachings and these are mostly just texts by Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche, if we included all the later commentaries and other literature connected to Dudjom Tersar it might be well over 30 volumes. I saw some published collected works of Barom Kagyu and it was something like ten volumes, if I remember right. So if we look at the amount of the literature and the practices connected to that some of the terma lineages could kind of be considered a school in their own right. Of course everything is impermanent and not many terma lineages survive in the full extent over the time. So later new termas are discovered. Some terma lineages are more institutionalized while others are more independent - they are not tied to any particular monasteries and are only passed down as instructional lineage. In general in Nyingma there are 6 major monasteries which preserve some of the major terma lineages and the kama lineages. These are:

Palyul - they practice mainly Namcho cycle, termas of Ratna Lingpa and Longchen Nyingthig
Dordrag - mainly Jangter - termas of Rigdzin Godem, Tulku Zangpo Dragpa and other tertons
Shechen - Longchen Nyingthig, kama, Rangjung Pema Nyingthig (terma of Dilgo Khyentse), not sure what else they practice.
Mindroling - mainly termas of Terdag lingpa and Kama
Kathog - termas of Longsal Nyingpo, Dudul Dorje and Konchog Chidu (Jater - terma of Jatson Nyingpo)
Dzogchen - Longchen Nyingthig, Jater, Nyingthig Yazhi and whatever else.

Other lineages, that have their own centers include:
Peling - tradition of Pema Lingpa (mainly in Bhutan,) also thanks to Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche in the West now.
Chogling Tersar - termas of Chogyur Lingpa (seats in eastern Tibet, India and Nepal, also many centers in the west).
Dudjom Tersar - termas of Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche, it seems to me that they are pretty much everywhere now.
Ripa - they practice termas of Tagsham cycle and recent termas of Namkha Drime Rinpoche.

There are some terma lineages of Nyingma teachings outside of Nyingma school - such as Karma Nyingthig and termas of different Karmapas and other Kamtsang teachers (Pawo and Chagme Rinpoches, 6th Shamarpa etc.)in Karma Kagyu lineage. Drikung Yangzab and other termas of Drikung masters in Drikung Kagyu. Termas of Terchen Barwai Dorje in Barom Kagyu, etc. Termas of 5th Dalailama in Gelug lineage and I guess there would be some termas of Wandu Nyingpo in Sakya lineage.

In general most of these termas will include some practice of Guru Padmasambhava and his different forms, practice of yidam, like Avalokiteshvara, Amitayus, Vajrasattva, Vajrakila, Yamantaka or Hayagriva - I think these are most common and a practice of dakini like Simhamukha, Khrodikali or Vajravarahi. Then there will be also some dzogchen instruction.



That's wonderful, thanks. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:10 pm 
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dorjeshonnu wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
With respect to another teacher, how does Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche fit into the 'modern' chart from Longchenpa on ?
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Adzom_Drukpa

hi blue :smile:


Thanks :)

He should be on the chart, but I guess it depends on the emphasis given by whoever composed it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Things are a lot clearer now. Thanks for the help, friends. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
dzoki wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
With respect to another teacher, how does Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche fit into the 'modern' chart from Longchenpa on ?


Nice chart, though it has some minor flaws - I am not sure that Shantarakshita was a student of Guru Padmasambhava and Longchenpa certainly did not compile Longchen Nyingthig. But anyways, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is a student of Changchub Dorje, who was a student of Adzom Drukpa and Nyala Pema Dudul.
Pema Dudul was a student of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje. Do Khyentse was student of Jigme Thrinle Ozer who was one of the main disciples of Jigme Lingpa.
Adzom Drukpa was a student of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, who also belonged to the lineage of Jigme Lingpa.
So I would say and Rinpoche said this himself that if he were to be pinned onto some school, then he belongs to Longchen Nyingthig Lineage.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:13 pm 
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dzoki wrote:

Nice chart, though it has some minor flaws - I am not sure that Shantarakshita was a student of Guru Padmasambhava and Longchenpa certainly did not compile Longchen Nyingthig. But anyways, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is a student of Changchub Dorje, who was a student of Adzom Drukpa and Nyala Pema Dudul.
Pema Dudul was a student of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje. Do Khyentse was student of Jigme Thrinle Ozer who was one of the main disciples of Jigme Lingpa.
Adzom Drukpa was a student of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, who also belonged to the lineage of Jigme Lingpa.
So I would say and Rinpoche said this himself that if he were to be pinned onto some school, then he belongs to Longchen Nyingthig Lineage.



Thanks. (Seem to be saying that a lot, but well meant). :)

I know some people like to look at lineages and see them as a sort of authentication, as if a terma from five hundred years ago has some intrinsic superiority, but I'm looking more at influences, energies, which I guess also includes the incarnations as a strong factor.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Blue Garuda,

If you're interested in lineages, issues such as what is a terma and a terton, and also what is the Nyingma school, its traditions, and so on, the following books are very good to get, and one book - the big red - is a must get:

His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche - The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its Fundamentals and History: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711998/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism: http://www.amazon.com/dp/086171122X/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Masters of Meditation and Miracles: Lives of the Great Buddhist Masters of India and Tibet: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1570625093/

Similar to the last book, but much larger, is Nyoshul Khenpo's Marvelous Garland. This one is out of stock however, but according to Tibetan Treasures, will be available again somewhere in September. This too would be a recommended book.

Do consider getting the two first books, they will help tremendously with what regards Nyingma, terma, tertons, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:08 pm 
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Norwegian wrote:
Blue Garuda,

If you're interested in lineages, issues such as what is a terma and a terton, and also what is the Nyingma school, its traditions, and so on, the following books are very good to get, and one book - the big red - is a must get:

His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche - The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its Fundamentals and History: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711998/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism: http://www.amazon.com/dp/086171122X/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Masters of Meditation and Miracles: Lives of the Great Buddhist Masters of India and Tibet: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1570625093/

Similar to the last book, but much larger, is Nyoshul Khenpo's Marvelous Garland. This one is out of stock however, but according to Tibetan Treasures, will be available again somewhere in September. This too would be a recommended book.

Do consider getting the two first books, they will help tremendously with what regards Nyingma, terma, tertons, etc.


Thanks. I'll check for any pdf's as well. No way I can afford to buy any at the moment. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Just another caveat: Those charts come from a "suspect" teacher/lineage, in the first place, if I'm not mistaken. Though those portions you've posted her are pretty accurate, based on my limited knowledge, I'd be careful with anything from that site.

There's a difference between "institutional affiliation" and "practice lineage," that must be appreciated to really answer the questions raised.
Dzogchen, as a "vehicle," has many different practice lineages, stemming from many different Terma traditions. The "Mother Monasteries" of the Nyingma, which we could call the "institutional affiliations," uphold and specialize in various terma traditions, and share many terma traditions, as well--Longchen Nyingthik, Dudjom Tersar, Ratna Lingpa, etc., as noted--and, of course, the Kama Transmissions are the common inheritance of all Nyingmapas.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche first attended Sakya Monasteries as a young man. He was recognized, however, as the Tulku of Adzom Drugpa, also known as Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, a famous Nyingma master who was a student and teacher during the Rimay Renaissance. He was recognized as other incarnations, as well. In terms of "institutional affiliation," he transcends such distinctions. In actuality, he's created his own....and in terms of practice lineages, he's a master of all, I believe-and not merely Dzogchen Terma lineages.

The Seventh Dzogchen Rinpoche is the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, so his "institutional affiliation" should be clear. The "Khandro Nyingthik" is the heart of that monastery's practice lineage. Longchen Nyingthik is a terma cycle closely related to the "Khandro Nyingthik," and Jigme Lingpa himself founded the retreat center there. The Jangter, and in particular, the cycle of "Konchok Chidu," are also important practices at that monastery.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:35 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Just another caveat: Those charts come from a "suspect" teacher/lineage, in the first place, if I'm not mistaken. Though those portions you've posted her are pretty accurate, based on my limited knowledge, I'd be careful with anything from that site.

There's a difference between "institutional affiliation" and "practice lineage," that must be appreciated to really answer the questions raised.
Dzogchen, as a "vehicle," has many different practice lineages, stemming from many different Terma traditions. The "Mother Monasteries" of the Nyingma, which we could call the "institutional affiliations," uphold and specialize in various terma traditions, and share many terma traditions, as well--Longchen Nyingthik, Dudjom Tersar, Ratna Lingpa, etc., as noted--and, of course, the Kama Transmissions are the common inheritance of all Nyingmapas.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche first attended Sakya Monasteries as a young man. He was recognized, however, as the Tulku of Adzom Drugpa, also known as Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, a famous Nyingma master who was a student and teacher during the Rimay Renaissance. He was recognized as other incarnations, as well. In terms of "institutional affiliation," he transcends such distinctions. In actuality, he's created his own....and in terms of practice lineages, he's a master of all, I believe-and not merely Dzogchen Terma lineages.

The Seventh Dzogchen Rinpoche is the head of the Dzogchen Monastery, so his "institutional affiliation" should be clear. The "Khandro Nyingthik" is the heart of that monastery's practice lineage. Longchen Nyingthik is a terma cycle closely related to the "Khandro Nyingthik," and Jigme Lingpa himself founded the retreat center there. The Jangter, and in particular, the cycle of "Konchok Chidu," are also important practices at that monastery.



Thanks. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Norwegian wrote:
Blue Garuda,

If you're interested in lineages, issues such as what is a terma and a terton, and also what is the Nyingma school, its traditions, and so on, the following books are very good to get, and one book - the big red - is a must get:

His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche - The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism: Its Fundamentals and History: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0861711998/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism: http://www.amazon.com/dp/086171122X/
Tulku Thondup Rinpoche - Masters of Meditation and Miracles: Lives of the Great Buddhist Masters of India and Tibet: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1570625093/

Similar to the last book, but much larger, is Nyoshul Khenpo's Marvelous Garland. This one is out of stock however, but according to Tibetan Treasures, will be available again somewhere in September. This too would be a recommended book.

Do consider getting the two first books, they will help tremendously with what regards Nyingma, terma, tertons, etc.


Found a pdf of the last book. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Found a pdf of the last book.

You can find another two also - scribd.


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