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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:59 am 
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oushi wrote:
Good point, good point!
It is the same thing, precisely the same thing. There was never a difference between looking and ceasing from looking. That is why only ceasing can help, because there was nothing to find or change in the first place. That is why one cannot become Buddha. We may ask, what is the difference then? No difference. Seeing a difference is the only delusion. There is no difference. Now we may ask why there are mortals, and awakened ones? Are there?

Are you saying there are no awakened human beings? and there is no such a thing?


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Yes, awakening is not a thing that people poses, or not. We can divide people into those who accumulate karma, and those who doesn't, but then again we dive into the confusing labyrinth of ideas. Being this or that is an effect of identification with this or that. This or that cannot be awakened, and presence is always "nirvanized" - I like that phrase. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:08 pm 
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That is very interesting.....but.....how does this relate to the teaching of Shakyamuni?.....he is awakened is he not, his teaching shows that it is achievable.
emmm.....this tells me that both of you cannot be right.
so.....your thoughts on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Sakyamuni didn't preach the direct teaching even once.
Longchenpa wrote:
Although the teacher, through the three dimensions of his existence, taught about reality in various ways, Those teachings were indirect and provisional.

Quote:
emmm.....this tells me that both of you cannot be right.

Nor can we be wrong.
Bodhidharma wrote:
When you don’t understand, your wrong. When you understand, you re not wrong. This is because the nature of wrong is empty. When you don’t understand right seems wrong. When you understand, wrong isn’t wrong, because wrong doesn’t exist.


Usually provisional teachings are based on opposites, and it depends on the recipient, which opposite will be applied. This way, two teachings may be totally different and even contradictory.

"A monk once went to Daihôgen of Seiryô before the midday meal to ask for instruction.
Hôgen pointed to the bamboo blinds with his hand. At that moment, two monks who were
there went over to the blinds and rolled them up in the same manner. Hôgen said, "One has
gained, one has lost."

Mumon's Commentary:
Just tell me, which one has gained and which one has lost? If you have one eye opened
concerning this point, you will know where National Teacher Seiryô failed. Nevertheless,
you should not inquire into this problem in connection with gain or loss. "

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:58 pm 
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What do you mean by "direct teaching"? and what is the purpose of this teaching?.....in your own words only.


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:29 am 
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Quote:
What do you mean by "direct teaching"?

Teaching that doesn't take recipients into consideration, so it doesn't have to be based on opposites.
Quote:
and what is the purpose of this teaching?

Whatever you can find in it. There are plenty to find, and nothing to find at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:05 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Quote:
What do you mean by "direct teaching"?

Teaching that doesn't take recipients into consideration, so it doesn't have to be based on opposites.
Quote:
and what is the purpose of this teaching?

Whatever you can find in it. There are plenty to find, and nothing to find at the same time.

emm...if a teaching that does not have recipients, students, pupils etc,(is this what you mean?) then clearly there is no point in that teaching, better not being there at all or no teaching....?
Surely for everything to exist there must be a reason or purpose? as it depends on it.....like cup and water.

we will come back to the second later.....based on the above first.


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:14 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Yes, awakening is not a thing that people poses, or not. We can divide people into those who accumulate karma, and those who doesn't, but then again we dive into the confusing labyrinth of ideas. Being this or that is an effect of identification with this or that. This or that cannot be awakened, and presence is always "nirvanized" - I like that phrase. :D


Karma is actions, how do we divide people in this way?
Those who have actions and those who don't? :shrug:

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Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
emm...if a teaching that does not have recipients, students, pupils etc,(is this what you mean?)

No. He wouldn't be a teacher without students. Teaching that is not composed by analyzing the student conditions. Sakyamuni composed his teachings according to the recipients conditioning.
Nothing wrote:
Surely for everything to exist there must be a reason or purpose? as it depends on it.....like cup and water.

Reason and purpose are just ways to grasp reality, which is ungraspable. So, model of reality is created to work with. This model has no power to go outside of reality. It is not reality, nor something else then reality. It cannot be discarded, nor accepted as true.
Dave The Seeker wrote:
Karma is actions, how do we divide people in this way?
Those who have actions and those who don't?

This is very shallow definition of karma. Karma is created when you go against that what you do, or you cling to that what you do. In other words, karma is created when you condemn or praise. As words are based on extremes, every judgement of an action creates karma. By relaxing to outcomes of an action, it is released without leaving a trace. No right, or wrong, no karma.

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:13 pm 
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goal-directed behaviour
goal-compelled behaviour
similar but different ways

effort instead of pushing
opening instead of frustrating
similar but different ways

main problem is forgetting
there was gautama
there remains wakefulness


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:30 pm 
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oushi wrote:

Dave The Seeker wrote:
Karma is actions, how do we divide people in this way?
Those who have actions and those who don't?

This is very shallow definition of karma. Karma is created when you go against that what you do, or you cling to that what you do. In other words, karma is created when you condemn or praise. As words are based on extremes, every judgement of an action creates karma. By relaxing to outcomes of an action, it is released without leaving a trace. No right, or wrong, no karma.


Where does judgment come into the equation here? That makes no sense.
no right, no wrong means no action, hence no action, no karma.............

From the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archives
Quote:
karma (Skt; Tib: lä): action; the working of cause and effect, whereby positive (virtuous) actions produce happiness and negative (non-virtuous) actions produce suffering.


From Access to Insight
Quote:
Karma is one of those words we don't translate. Its basic meaning is simple enough — action —


Here is the whole explanation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... karma.html

In a commentary on the third chapter of Earth Store Bodhisattva By Master Hsuan Hua
Quote:
This third chapter is called Contemplating the Karmic Conditions of Living Beings. “To contemplate” means to observe. What are “living beings”? A multitude of causal conditions create living beings, who become born from pursuing different states. Why do we say they are formed as a result of many causes? The multitude of causal conditions includes form, feeling, cognition, formation and consciousness, which create the physical body as grasping occurs. Living beings are born because we pursue different states. Those who are born from such causes and conditions are living beings.

Karma. Where does karma come from? Karma may be created through speech, physical acts or thoughts. Why is the result “karma”, instead of “causes”? Causal conditions refer to a single incident; karma is an accumulation of many causal conditions after a long period of time. “Conditions” are a set of circumstances that create karma. Every living being has his/her own karmic conditions, and the states that he/she experiences are different. Some living beings always encounter happy states. Why? In the past they planted good causes, and therefore in this lifetime they reap good results. Some living beings always face very difficult situations, why? It is because in the past they did not plant good causes; they sowed bad ones instead. Over time these bad causes turn into bad karma; hence they face such miserable retributions in this lifetime. In general, plant good causes and reap good results; plant bad causes and reap bad results. We create good and evil personally; no one else makes us do it. This applies throughout our path to Buddhahood, a destination reached not because other people made us, but because of our own hard work at cultivation. Working hard at cultivation is about planting the causes for Buddhahood, which leads to Buddhahood in the future. Do the work of Buddhas and become Buddhas in the future; do the work of demons and become demons. Did the text not say earlier that the hells are called forth in response to the Three Evil Karmas?

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Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:50 pm 
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I think you're confusing the Buddhist concept of karma with the Hindu concept of dharma.

Also, judgment is very coarse. You're missing out on feeling (vedana) and also on intention, depending on which path you're following. If you intend to harm a person, and take steps to do so, and then "relax" to the outcome, it doesn't erase the "traces" you've already created.

oushi wrote:
This is very shallow definition of karma. Karma is created when you go against that what you do, or you cling to that what you do. In other words, karma is created when you condemn or praise. As words are based on extremes, every judgement of an action creates karma. By relaxing to outcomes of an action, it is released without leaving a trace. No right, or wrong, no karma.

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The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

http://nondualism.org/


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Dave The Seeker wrote:
Where does judgment come into the equation here? That makes no sense.

Action->result->judgment->conscience->guilt->suffering.
Dave The Seeker wrote:
no right, no wrong means no action, hence no action, no karma.............

It is your interpretation, but believe me, even from no action, you can create karma.
Longchenpa wrote:
Though attachment, aversion, dullness, pride, and envy may arise, fully understand their inner energy; recognize them in the very first moment, before karma has been accumulated. In the second moment look nakedly at this state and relax in its presence. Then whichever of the five passions arise becomes a pure presence, freed in its own place, without being eliminated.


Linji wrote:
Not so the True Man of the Way who goes with the concurrent causes to wipe out his old Karma and lets things follow their own course. He dresses himself as is fitting; when he wants to go, he goes; when he wants to stay, he stays.


Bodhidharma wrote:
But butchers create karma by slaughtering animals. How can they be Buddhas?
I only talk about seeing your nature. I don’t talk about creating karma. Regardless of what we do, our karma has no hold on us.


Just a few, quite random quotes...

MattJ wrote:
Also, judgment is very coarse. You're missing out on feeling (vedana) and also on intention, depending on which path you're following. If you intend to harm a person, and take steps to do so, and then "relax" to the outcome, it doesn't erase the "traces" you've already created.

If you harm a person without breaking you conscience, no karma will be accumulated. No magic here. Zen was popular among samurais, remember?
Bodhidharma wrote:
You should realize that all karma, painful or otherwise, comes from your own mind. If you can just concentrate your mind and transcend its falsehood and evil, the suffering of the three realms and six states of existence will automatically disappear.

But... its always "good" to tell people to do "good" stuff, isn't it?
dorjeshonnu wrote:
main problem is forgetting

I would say, remembering is the main problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:27 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Nothing wrote:
emm...if a teaching that does not have recipients, students, pupils etc,(is this what you mean?)

No. He wouldn't be a teacher without students. Teaching that is not composed by analyzing the student conditions. Sakyamuni composed his teachings according to the recipients conditioning.

This is interesting.....yes, equally true but then we have a balance right?.....so what you are saying is Sakyamuni does not have the solution to solve the problem...ie. to see through this balance and break out of it? or escape this thing we all call reality?.....the answer according to Sakyamuni is awakening.....is this what you mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
so what you are saying is Sakyamuni does not have the solution to solve the problem...ie. to see through this balance and break out of it? or escape this thing we all call reality?

Not that. He composed and applied teachings to fit actual recipients, not to fit all recipients, even those living 2500 years later. Some may fit, some may not.

Why do you think it is about escaping reality?

Quote:
the answer according to Sakyamuni is awakening.....is this what you mean?

All paths lead to awakening, like roads lead to Rome. But If I give you guidelines how to get there from my place, will you be able to benefit from it? The common way to deal with this problem is to... gather them all in one place.

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:17 pm 
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oushi wrote:
If you harm a person without breaking you conscience, no karma will be accumulated. No magic here. Zen was popular among samurais, remember?
Karma is not the product of conscience, it is the product of action with intention. Intention is based on what is known and inferred, and constitutes a decision. If what is known (without error) and (validly) inferred lead one to conclude that an action that would otherwise be harmful is in fact not harmful, or is relatively less harmful than every other alternative, or through (genuine) special means is known to produce much greater benefit than every other alternative, the decision of intent is formed in a way which produces beneficial karma with the action. If what is known (without error) and (validly) inferred lead one to act in a harmful way, a relatively harmful way, or to ignore the knowledge of (genuine) special means that would produce much greater benefit, the decision of intent is formed in a way which produces detrimental karma with the action. In this same way, non-harmful intentions can produce neutral karma with the action. Conscience is a pleasant, unpleasant, or not-unpleasant reaction to intentions, or intentions with actions, which can motivate beneficial pleasure, regret, or analysis. Removing conscience does not remove the collection of karma - it merely limits the capacity to accurately assess the results of actions. It is an imposition of ignorance.
Quote:
But... its always "good" to tell people to do "good" stuff, isn't it?
Positive karma does not automatically produce liberation - it only makes the pursuit of liberation a more pleasant experience. Sometimes the pleasantry of experience can inhibit the pursuit of liberation.
Quote:
I would say, remembering is the main problem.

Gautama would say ignorance, craving, and distraction are the main problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:31 pm 
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oushi wrote:
(Sakyamuni) composed and applied teachings to fit actual recipients, not to fit all recipients, even those living 2500 years later. Some may fit, some may not.
Gautama remains with us in these teachings. The division of categories and preferences is carried by actual recipients, and neither confines nor divides the teacher.

Quote:
Why do you think it is about escaping reality?
Liberation is not an escape, it is the presentiment of an ending by waking with reality.

Quote:
All paths lead to awakening, like roads lead to Rome.
Many paths do not lead to awakening - ignorance and wakefulness have roots in the same sentience.

Quote:
But If I give you guidelines how to get there from my place, will you be able to benefit from it? The common way to deal with this problem is to... gather them all in one place.
The methods of Gautama continue to function, alongside those related to earlier and later appearances of wakefulness. The Buddhist teacher is an historical expositor of methods which breach time and categories, not an innovative originator of erratic commodities.


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:34 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Nothing wrote:
so what you are saying is Sakyamuni does not have the solution to solve the problem...ie. to see through this balance and break out of it? or escape this thing we all call reality?

Not that. He composed and applied teachings to fit actual recipients, not to fit all recipients, even those living 2500 years later. Some may fit, some may not.

Why do you think it is about escaping reality?

So Sakyamuni does have a solution.....but partly...emmm....can you explain what you mean by "all recipients"...do you mean all human beings or animals etc? can you define this?

Escaping reality.....lets keep that aside for now and we hope to discuss this later.


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Quote:
Karma is not the product of conscience, it is the product of action with intention.

Intention is like a wind, action like a wave, conscience like a rock, and karma is rumble of the waves crushing on rock. Conscience is a society shaping fence, limiting the boundaries of freedom. It does that by sense of guilt, which then create suffering. This is how society shapes itself. In other words, suffering is there for a reason. The question is, are we here?

Quote:
it merely limits the capacity to accurately assess the results of actions.

Precisely. Without such an accuracy, how can you know what is right or wrong? You stop judging and differentiating. Then, sameness is allowed. Need for separate self disappear.

"The Perfect Way is only difficult for those who pick and choose;
Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear.
Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;
If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against.
The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease;
While the deep meaning is misunderstood, it is useless to meditate on Rest.
It [the Original Mind] is blank and featureless as space; It has no "too little" or "too much;"
Only because we take and reject does it seem to us not to be so.
Do not chase after entanglements as though they were real things,
Do not try to drive pain away by pretending that it is not real;
Pain, if you seek serenity in Oneness, will vanish of its own accord.
Stop all movement in order to get rest, and rest will itself be restless;
Linger over either extreme, and Oneness is forever lost." -Seng Ts'an

Quote:
It is an imposition of ignorance.

Look up, because you may trow away the baby with the bath.
dorjeshonnu wrote:
But... its always "good" to tell people to do "good" stuff, isn't it?
Positive karma does not automatically produce liberation - it only makes the pursuit of liberation a more pleasant experience. Sometimes the pleasantry of experience can inhibit the pursuit of liberation.

Agree.
dorjeshonnu wrote:
Quote:
I would say, remembering is the main problem.


Gautama would say ignorance, craving, and distraction are the main problems.

All of them are based on wrong perception of self, which is caused by wrong perception of time, which appears as three worlds. Although in present, experiences from the past are projected into expectations of the future. Those, not fulfilled, create disappointment, sense of guild, and ultimately dukkha. Moment by moment, people are "reborn", in to new and new expectations of how they should act. Suffering is self inflicted. That is incarnation into samsara... thx to memory.

dorjeshonnu wrote:
Quote:
All paths lead to awakening, like roads lead to Rome.

Many paths do not lead to awakening - ignorance and wakefulness have roots in the same sentience.

What made you think that Buddha likes to pick and choose? I am certain that Buddha never divides, as it would affirm duality.
dorjeshonnu wrote:
Quote:
But If I give you guidelines how to get there from my place, will you be able to benefit from it? The common way to deal with this problem is to... gather them all in one place.

The methods of Gautama continue to function, alongside those related to earlier and later appearances of wakefulness

Who said they doesn't? But we have higher vehicles, don't we?

Nothing wrote:
oushi wrote:
Nothing wrote:
so what you are saying is Sakyamuni does not have the solution to solve the problem...ie. to see through this balance and break out of it? or escape this thing we all call reality?

Not that. He composed and applied teachings to fit actual recipients, not to fit all recipients, even those living 2500 years later. Some may fit, some may not.

Why do you think it is about escaping reality?

So Sakyamuni does have a solution.....but partly...emmm....can you explain what you mean by "all recipients"...do you mean all human beings or animals etc? can you define this?

Not partly. You can approach someone directly and adjust the teaching to perfectly fit the person. Fantastic approach. Or you can compose a teaching that will cover the "shared" part of all recipients. It so happened, that the shared part is all there is. Nothing to throw away, nothing missing. Everything is the same pure presence taking different forms. This is mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Direct Teaching
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Just an observation... jñana is sometimes translated as "conscience"...

Quote:
conscience - from O.Fr. conscience "conscience, innermost thoughts, desires, intentions; feelings" (12c.), from L. conscientia "knowledge within oneself, sense of right, a moral sense," from conscientem (nom. consciens), prp. of conscire "be (mutually) aware," from com- "with," or "thoroughly" (see com-) + scire "to know" (see science). Probably a loan-translation of Gk. syneidesis, lit. "with-knowledge." Sometimes nativized in O.E./M.E. as inwit. Russian also uses a loan-translation, so-vest, "conscience," lit. "with-knowledge.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... hmode=none


:namaste:

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