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Phassa (contact) - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Phassa (contact)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:48 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:09 am

Hi retro

It is indeed a real word; I don't deny that. But given that this word is used to denote so many varieties of philosophical positions, is it safe to say that a view is "realist", without indicating what sort of affliation to which sort of realism was being promoted? Sometimes, the label is just used to dismiss an argument, and given the many levels of meaning to "realism", the risk becomes disproportionately higher.

You're right - "materialist" would not be my first choice, since that term has already acquired too narrow and specific a meaning in the context of "tri-temporal materialism" for one particular branch of Buddhism. Ontology comes in as a close favourite for this reason, simply because of its historical association with metaphysics. As I understand the injunction against "sabbam atthi" and "sabbam natthi", I think SN 12.48 really brings to the fore why the Buddha advised against such extremes - it was pure speculation (ie metaphysical, at least in the Humean sense that I am accustomed to) and not experiential. That speculation, coupled with one of the 4 types of clinging, is what generates one of the nidanas of DO.

As to the capital "E" atthi, I'll have to channel Gombrich, since I can't actually recall any specific details being recorded in the Canon of how "sabbam atthi" was supposed to have been explained by the Buddha's peers. I think the Canon might have skipped the details on these "Atthi" metaphysics floating out there, since SN 12.15 is swift to zoom in on the problem of such a view - it generates clinging.

As to the inclusion of the kāmā in the "All" formula, the kāmā are specifically mentioned in SN 35.23.

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:18 am

Greetings Sylvester,

OK, but if Mike gets upset about me using the word "ontological" I'm sending him in your direction! :tongue:

Re: kāma and sabba, venerable Nyanatiloka defines kāma as "1. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire'; 2. objective sensuality, the five sense-objects."

I do not see how any of that is "out there"... unless you are regarding a sense-object as "tree" rather than "sight of tree". I opt for the latter.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:24 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:28 am

Greetings Tilt,

I think you are slowly coming to understand the position that I have been putting forward in the recent week (especially in light of the turtle comment and the acknowledge of science as realist)... what you are yet to see is why I consider it to be an important distinction.

I'm offline for an hour or two, but will endeavour to explain why later, time pending.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:34 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:52 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:37 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:06 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:03 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:28 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:39 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:18 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
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Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:33 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:44 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:53 am

I fully agree. :smile:


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