A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

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A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby Zhaxi Cairang » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:03 pm

My question is, does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?

ZC
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby Josef » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:29 pm

Zhaxi Cairang wrote:My question is, does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?

ZC

If you mean "experience" the answer is no.
Its not uncommon for students to have no experience whatsoever.
Its been a non-experience for me plenty of times.
People eventually will "get it".
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby Sönam » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:44 am

Nangwa wrote:
Zhaxi Cairang wrote:My question is, does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?

ZC

If you mean "experience" the answer is no.
Its not uncommon for students to have no experience whatsoever.
Its been a non-experience for me plenty of times.
People eventually will "get it".


That's why there is ngondro for Dzogchen too ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:08 am

Zhaxi Cairang wrote:My question is, does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?

ZC


Hello Zhaxi Cairang, :)

Thanks for your good question.

Rigpa / vidya, is to know your Natural State. :D
In how far does one know this state? That does depdend upon a lot of factors of course. :o
The master who makes the introduction knows this state in another way then the student knows.
Also when the student has a great awareness of this state, it is allways different then the master has.

So we are aware of this state when the master makes the introduction and we know it then also like that.
Is this experience? Yes, or better said an awareness of this (individual) knowing.


Best wishes to our individual development.

Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby heart » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:14 am

Zhaxi Cairang wrote:My question is, does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?

ZC


No, absolutely not. A Dzogchen master is a Dzogchen master because he continuously try to rest in the natural state. Being close to him doing whatever there is always a possibility to recognize the natural state. Still many students don't recognize it even in 10 or 20 years. There are 2 circumstances that are said to make it easier to recognize, devotion and compassion. So what it comes down to is gaining trust in the masters timely instructions and applying them with great sincerity because then you will for sure develop compassion and devotion which will at sometime lead to recognition to take place. In most Dzogchen traditions the teacher will teach Ngondro and Yidam's and Guru Yogas and many other instructions. Some people get it immediately, more or less, and that seems to normally indicate a close connection between the student and the disciple in a previous life, not that they are particularly gifted. After you had your first recognition the actual big work begins. At this point you can, if necessary, apply the Dzogchen preliminaries that are for separating mind (sem) and the natural state (rigpa). This can't be done if you haven't had a recognition in the first place of course. Many kind of practices are normally practiced after this including development and completion stages of various yidam as well as other instructions.This is a general outline and there might be big differences between different teachers way to give teachings. Trungpa Rinpoche said in an interview that in Tibet often the transmissions for the various practices where received in a very haphazard kind of way and not in the kind of organized way we might think. Many Tibetans teachers continue to work and transmit in the same way outside Tibet and it might lead students to believe that they are very advanced. But like ChNN says "you have to know your own condition" it is paramount in Dzogchen to be honest about yourself both to yourself and to your teacher. That honesty is the actual basis for the transmission to take place.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:56 pm

Heruka wrote:
No, absolutely not.


Dear Heruka, :)

Even normal people experience the Natural State during the day time.
But they do not recognise this or they do not know it like that.

But during the introduction the light is burning also only for a few seconds may be.
But due to the masters skill the student does recognise this seldom state because he did experience this state allready before. The Buddhahood is allready there, was never gone and will be ever there present.
We call that Sugatagarbha or the first mind which is covered only by the illusionary second mind of habits.

Sometimes these karmic habits can be little or small then it is there, our Natural State
Like on the important day of the introduction.................

Sayings like my understanding stood still etc. are here as example, that the people experience this State sometimes.

Sure this has a short duration that recognising or experience but it happens.
If there are realy persons who have not this experience during the introduction, for two seconds or more?
Well that is what i doubt because i never heard it.

This because it all depends upon the power/skill of the master to open ones mind. :bow:
Peronal seen did i have that master and it happened.

So absolute is here the wrong chosen word.

Give it a chance to happen.............. :o


Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby heart » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:58 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Heruka wrote:
No, absolutely not.


Dear Heruka, :)

Even normal people experience the Natural State during the day time.
But they do not recognise this or they do not know it like that.

But during the introduction the light is burning also only for a few seconds may be.
But due to the masters skill the student does recognise this seldom state because he did experience this state allready before. The Buddhahood is allready there, was never gone and will be ever there present.
We call that Sugatagarbha or the first mind which is covered only by the illusionary second mind of habits.

Sometimes these karmic habits can be little or small then it is there, our Natural State
Like on the important day of the introduction.................

Sayings like my understanding stood still etc. are here as example, that the people experience this State sometimes.

Sure this has a short duration that recognising or experience but it happens.
If there are realy persons who have not this experience during the introduction, for two seconds or more?
Well that is what i doubt because i never heard it.

This because it all depends upon the power/skill of the master to open ones mind. :bow:
Peronal seen did i have that master and it happened.

So absolute is here the wrong chosen word.

Give it a chance to happen.............. :o


Best wishes for our individual practice
Kalden Yungdrung


Dear Kalden,

The reason for answering "No, absolutely not" is because the question was "does every student of Dzogchen experiment the "natural state" (rigpa) when the Dozgchen master give the direct transmission?" So do everyone recognize at the time of direct introduction, no they don't. I would actually say that it is quite unusual for anyone to get it the first time. People have all kind of funny experiences during direct introduction that they later refer to as recognition but there is a huge difference between having a experience and actually recognizing. Then of course you are right that the natural state is something very...natural. However recognizing it is not.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby White Lotus » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:37 pm

:namaste: Noble friends, once you see the natural state, buddha nature, ones own nature. then ask what it teaches you about the world around you. the sensation within as the sensation without.
love, White Lotus. xxxx
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:44 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Noble friends, once you see the natural state, buddha nature, ones own nature. then ask what it teaches you about the world around you. the sensation within as the sensation without.
love, White Lotus. xxxx



Hello White Lotus, :)

Thanks for your reply.

- Thought about the awareness instead of seeing.But that depends upon ones level of understanding or the Rigpa and ones potentiality of to be aware of ones natural State.

- In case of full awareness i would be aware of what is experienced as the utmost purity or clearness.
- In case of seeing, when one is out of the State, one could see what is seen, that it is all illusion.
- In case of not at all abiding in that State, one experiences/is seeing karma as well + as -.

Best wishes for our individual practice and development / emancipation.

Kalden Yungdrung
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby narraboth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:55 pm

hiya, I am here to distrub everyone again :)

theoritically, only when student recognise rigpa, he or she can really start practicing Dzogchen, otherwise he or she doesn't know what is to be practiced.
however, in dzogchen tradition, there are still many levels and steps to make the recognition really clear, which might take long time.
Base on Karma Chamed, the first time recognition for him is like the shell of the rice seed, and kind of useless.
Useless is in sense that it won't help you when you face problems like negative thoughts or the final challenge: death.
Only through deligent meditation and 'keeping' (see, it's interesting here, deligently keeping and staying), the real rice will appear, then you can really 'rest and stay'.

So, the easiest and the most relevant way to check your status is still this:
see if you have more compassion, less negative thoughts, more peaceful in mind, less desire and attachment. If yes, it's good. Otherwise it might be not that good, no matter you think yourself recognise it or not, even no matter your master told you that you got it or not. 'Got it' is not important, it's if it's usable important.

Also, in Chinese Zen tradition there's a saying: 'seek it longer, recognise it later, the better.' Because those who 'recognise' it quicker, usually lose it quicker. Those who got it later already have a firm base of mind control, so they can stay and rest easier.
I am sure most of people have heard this famous story. Nyushu Longdor is the best student of Dza Paltrul Rinpoche; he studied from Paltrul for more than ten years, and never really recognised rigpa. One night Paltrul rinpoche lied down with him on the grass together and showed him the stars in the sky, only then he got it. And after he got it, he became the most important Dzogchen master at that time.
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby heart » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:13 pm

narraboth wrote:Base on Karma Chamed, the first time recognition for him is like the shell of the rice seed, and kind of useless. Useless is in sense that it won't help you when you face problems like negative thoughts or the final challenge: death. Only through deligent meditation and 'keeping' (see, it's interesting here, deligently keeping and staying), the real rice will appear, then you can really 'rest and stay'.


Hi narraboth,

From which text by Karma Chagmed did you get this? It is quite interesting.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby narraboth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:28 pm

heart wrote:
Hi narraboth,

From which text by Karma Chagmed did you get this? It is quite interesting.

/magnus


Hi, it's called 'Chagmed Rinpoche very secret biography'
it was translated to Chinese by a very reliable tulku in Khenpo Jigmed Puntsok's monastery. I was told only those who finished Ngondro are allowed to read this, but it's available on internet anyway :P

Chagmed rinpoche discribed all his experience from his young age to his 52 years old. He describes his 'real' recognition in water horse year (his 47 or so?):

'自从最初“指示本性”一直到现在,这中间的所有经历都是虚伪无益的糠秕,只是荒费时日,徒劳无功而已。.......
因此,当时自我感觉如何呢?
以前的修行由于心过警惕,而受到阻碍,现在却感到怡然自在;以前的修行由于执着于修,而受到阻碍,现在却是无修无整不加理会;以前的修行由于专注观看,而受到阻碍,现在却不知道能与所哪个在观哪个在看。自我内心在收敛时,能自然安住于明净;内心在外驰时,也能不散乱地安住于现空无别之境。由此而知,所谓的安住其实并没有任何所安住之法,而是在平常自然的状态下放下一切。所谓放下一切,其实本然就没有任何所放下的……
言语谈得再多,即使谈到词穷理极的地步也都是无足轻重,毫无作用的。除非依靠殊胜加持,自我亲证。否则一切语言都无法真正表述,这大概就是“无可言说”的本义。
就此修行次第而言是属于下等离戏瑜伽之所证,犹如初三的上弦月,虽然它仍待圆满,但是它就是真实本然的月亮。'

I can't translate all, just to translate the small part here:
'from the first time "instruction the nature" until now, all those experiences between are like unless shells of wheats (or rice), waste of time... '
(that's what he said)

after his real recognition, he can:
'no-practice, no-modify, don't bother to do anything to it.....I used to watch and focus on my mind, and I don't know who is watching whom now. when I gather my mind, it naturally stays in pure-clearity; when it goes out, it naturally rest in the state of non-dual of appearance and emptiness.'
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby White Lotus » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:25 pm

:namaste: Dear Kalden,

Thought about the awareness instead of seeing.But that depends upon ones level of understanding or the Rigpa and ones potentiality of to be aware of ones natural State.


seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling etc are all not seperate from awareness. all of these things are the buddha nature, and inseperable from awareness which is also the buddha nature.

rigpa is i think this normal experience of life right now... so, "just live".

love white Lotus. xxxx
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby heart » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:33 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Dear Kalden,

Thought about the awareness instead of seeing.But that depends upon ones level of understanding or the Rigpa and ones potentiality of to be aware of ones natural State.


seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling etc are all not seperate from awareness. all of these things are the buddha nature, and inseperable from awareness which is also the buddha nature.

rigpa is i think this normal experience of life right now... so, "just live".

love white Lotus. xxxx


"Just live" is in fact ignorance and confusion if the natural state hasn't been recognized.

"Although (the statement) “Samantabhadra has attained Buddhahood on the ground without even a slight accumulation of virtue” is well known, nevertheless, (it is not exactly correct).
If it is scrutinized, (it becomes evident) that the recognition of one’s essence (rang ngo) is a ocean of self-arisen stainless virtue.
(This recognition) is the forever present perfection of the great accumulation and the forever present conquest of obscurations (sgrib) by virtue of the purification of neutral ignorance (lung ma bstan gyi ma rig pa)."

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... ret_16.pdf

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby mutsuk » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:40 am

heart wrote:"Just live" is in fact ignorance and confusion if the natural state hasn't been recognized.


That is perfectly right!

"Although (the statement) “Samantabhadra has attained Buddhahood on the ground without even a slight accumulation of virtue” is well known, nevertheless, (it is not exactly correct).


Glad that you quote this abstract. However, you should read it without the section " (it is not exactly correct)", because otherwise it would seem that the way Samantabhadra reached buddhahood is incorrect. This is not what the text is saying there. It is all talking about Samantabhadra. I'm quoting from Jean-Luc's french translation (translating back into english) :

"Thus, it is well-known that "Samantabhadra reached buddhahood on the Base, without performing a single atom of virtue"; however, if we examine this (statement carefully, it actually means that), the recognition of his own essence is (in itself) the ocean of self-arisen, immaculate virtues. Therefore, his great accumulations are being perfected since the beginning, and the neutral ignorance having been purified, he subdued obscurations at the time of the origin: having recognized (the visions of the Base) as his own manifestations, his (potential) ignorance was (instantaneously) purified, and since it has been purified, all passions were (also) consequently purified, because all this results from the purification of ignorance."
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Re: A question regarding direct introduction to one's own nature

Postby heart » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 pm

mutsuk wrote:
heart wrote:"Just live" is in fact ignorance and confusion if the natural state hasn't been recognized.


That is perfectly right!

"Although (the statement) “Samantabhadra has attained Buddhahood on the ground without even a slight accumulation of virtue” is well known, nevertheless, (it is not exactly correct).


Glad that you quote this abstract. However, you should read it without the section " (it is not exactly correct)", because otherwise it would seem that the way Samantabhadra reached buddhahood is incorrect. This is not what the text is saying there. It is all talking about Samantabhadra. I'm quoting from Jean-Luc's french translation (translating back into english) :

"Thus, it is well-known that "Samantabhadra reached buddhahood on the Base, without performing a single atom of virtue"; however, if we examine this (statement carefully, it actually means that), the recognition of his own essence is (in itself) the ocean of self-arisen, immaculate virtues. Therefore, his great accumulations are being perfected since the beginning, and the neutral ignorance having been purified, he subdued obscurations at the time of the origin: having recognized (the visions of the Base) as his own manifestations, his (potential) ignorance was (instantaneously) purified, and since it has been purified, all passions were (also) consequently purified, because all this results from the purification of ignorance."


Thank you mutsuk, great to see a different translation.

/magnus
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