Direct Teaching

[Fu Ri Shin]

...

It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.

[catmoon]

Careful there.

This discussion has just settled down nicely from a tendency towards personal sniping, which is a really good example of Buddhist practice. Don't throw it away.

[oushi]

...

It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.

How could I know that? I only described known pitfalls, which were stressed over and over again by great masters in the past. If you think that you can achieve something by deliberate practice, tell me what will you achieve?

[muni]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/94144734/Natu ... r-You-Meet

This teaching can have some clarity points about the last posts in exploring buddhism. May it do so and clear away all confusion.
Mouse-down-rolling requested please.
ps As mentioned we need oral instructions from our master.

[oushi]

In all experience of samsara and nirvana, inner and outer,
convinced of the absence of both delusion and freedom from delusion,
we do not seek to abandon samsara or attain nirvana.

[oushi]

ps As mentioned we need oral instructions from our master.

For this particular approach, it may be true, but on the other hand, do we need instruction and permission to perceive, or rather be, the reality? If it's unstoppable, how come it needs to be started? The teacher is one, and he doesn't teach those surrounding him. So, the oral instruction is helpful but certainly not required.

[Fu Ri Shin]

...

It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.

How could I know that?

I stand corrected. Although this:

Every practice that has craving as its root. That is why we have hundreds of millions practitioners, and maybe few hundreds awakened.

...seems to imply otherwise.

I only described known pitfalls, which were stressed over and over again by great masters in the past. If you think that you can achieve something by deliberate practice, tell me what will you achieve?

Practice is practice. Getting caught up in whether it's deliberate or not at any given moment is beside the point.

[Fu Ri Shin]

Careful there.

This discussion has just settled down nicely from a tendency towards personal sniping, which is a really good example of Buddhist practice. Don't throw it away.

Oh, no intention of that here. I was trying to understand the perspective his comments are coming from. Thank you for your mindfulness of the thread.

[oushi]

Every practice that has craving as its root.

Can you prove that statement is not true? I do not know every practitioner personally, but I know about a lot of misconceptions going on in the "practice" area. And it's not about the false teachings, but misinterpretation. Result of that is fractions of a % of realized practitioners. I recall Mumon Yamada stating that for example Zen in Japan is dead. I can list many such an examples.

Practice is practice

Cannot disagree.

Getting caught up in whether it's deliberate or not at any given moment is beside the point.

It's the whole point.

[Fu Ri Shin]

Can you prove that statement is not true?

I'm not falling for that. It's just a good old appeal to ignorance fallacy.

I do not know every practitioner personally, but I know about a lot of misconceptions going on in the "practice" area. And it's not about the false teachings, but misinterpretation. Result of that is fractions of a % of realized practitioners.

It's fine if you consider yourself an authority on validity of practice and the dubious idea of realization statistics. I don't.

I recall Mumon Yamada stating that for example Zen in Japan is dead. I can list many such an examples.

If Zen is dead in Japan, I doubt it is the result of too much deliberation. Huseng can probably attest to this.

It's the whole point.

If deliberation is in fact the death of fruitful practice, surely it goes for the jugular when one engages in the meta-perceptive and hyper-considerate exercise of trying to distinguish (let alone influence) if one is being deliberate or not.

[oushi]

Tell me please, how many awakened people do you know? I mean, people that openly admit to be awakened. We both know Sakyamuni did that, so it is not faux-pas. I heard Shinzen Young proclaiming to be awakened. So we have two. I heard him saying that there are maybe few hundred awakened people in our times. But feel free to quote statements from any time period. According to wikipedia we have 350-500 millions followers of Buddha Dharma. If practice is effective in 1%, then we should have realized Buddhas in a number able to populate small country. Certainly you wont have problem with finding confirming quotes. Even if it is 0.1% that task shouldn't be hard. If is it below 0.001%, is deliberate practice effective or not?

[Zenda]

I was inspired by your post to look up Shinzen Young. Interesting guy. He did an interview with Buddhist Geeks.
Full link is: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on ... zen-young/

[oushi]

I was inspired by your post to look up Shinzen Young. Interesting guy. He did an interview with Buddhist Geeks.
Full link is: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on ... zen-young/

There is a lot of interesting stuff on Youtube.

[Fu Ri Shin]

Tell me please, how many awakened people do you know? I mean, people that openly admit to be awakened. We both know Sakyamuni did that, so it is not faux-pas.

Extant material that I concern myself with (i.e., Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen) regards awakening experiences as a fairly common result of serious practice. You may or may not consider this Awakening. In Zen (I use the word cross-culturally) it is considered the beginning of it.

I heard Shinzen Young proclaiming to be awakened. So we have two. I heard him saying that there are maybe few hundred awakened people in our times. But feel free to quote statements from any time period. According to wikipedia we have 350-500 millions followers of Buddha Dharma. If practice is effective in 1%, then we should have realized Buddhas in a number able to populate small country. Certainly you wont have problem with finding confirming quotes. Even if it is 0.1% that task shouldn't be hard. If is it below 0.001%, is deliberate practice effective or not?

If we could somehow verify these statistics as definitive, it wouldn't tell us anything about whether deliberate practice is to blame. It would be more likely to suggest that the vast majority of practitioners do not commit enough or that awakening is more subtle than an all or nothing phenomenon. That being said, we cannot verify these statistics, so this is useless speculation.

Maybe backing off from any sort of conscious effort helps some people's practice. I believe, from my own life experiences, that I am unlikely to do or achieve much of anything without commitment, effort, deliberation, etc., because I've seen it go both ways. Others may have a different experience. 84,000 dharma doors and all that. It sounds like you could very well have a different experience than myself. I don't take issue with that. What I do take issue with is this attempt to demonstrate that the Buddhists of the world have gotten it wrong by and large, as well as supplying the True Answer, which is supposed to be some kind of universal medicine.

[oushi]

Extant material that I concern myself with (i.e., Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen) regards awakening experiences as a fairly common result of serious practice.

Yes, a bestseller... writen by a self proclaimed master.

You may or may not consider this Awakening. In Zen (I use the word cross-culturally) it is considered the beginning of it.

You know how many sucha an experiences Hakuin gathered before awakening? More then 60.

It would be more likely to suggest that the vast majority of practitioners do not commit enough or that awakening is more subtle than an all or nothing phenomenon.

As your approach is that from Zen perspective, I would like you to give some comments on those quotes:

Even though one lives on a lonely mountain peak, eats a single meal at dawn, meditates without lying down through the six periods of practice, he is only a Karma-producing man. One who gives away as alms all that he has: his head, eyes, marrow, brain; his home, wife and children; elephants and horses — the seven precious things — look, all such actions cause only suffering to body and heart, and contrary to expectation incite further sorrow
[...]
There are shaven pates who eat their fill and then sit down to do zazen. They arrest the flow (of the heart) and do not let it act. They dislike noise and seek quietude.
These are the practices of other ways.
A patriarch said: “If you stay (fix) the heart, you see quietude. If you arouse it, it beholds the outside; if you recollect it, the inside is clear. If you concentrate it, Samadhi is entered.” But all these are merely forms of activity.
Do you not know him who is right now listening to the Dharma? Why should you need to approach him by practice, ascertain him and solemnity him? He is not one whom you can approach or dignify. Moreover, if he would exalt himself, then everything would gain exaltation.
Do not be deceived.
[...]
You say you train in the Six Perfections and the Ten Thousand Practices. As I see it, they are all productive of Karma. To seek the Buddha, to seek the Dharma, those produce only Karma in hell. To seek the Bodhisattvas is again producing Karma. Reading the Sutras and Treatises also produces Karma.
[...]
Followers of the Way, there is talk of the Way to be practiced and the Dharma to be realized. Tell me, then, what Dharma is to be realized, what Way is to be practiced.
At this moment, what do you lack for your functioning? And what do you need to restore by your training?
Young students, not understanding anything, put their faith in wild fox sprites and so get entangled in their random talk and fancies such as that in the law, theory and practice must tally, to
guard against the three karmic actions and so to attain Buddhahood. Such and other discourses are as frequent as April showers.

[Fu Ri Shin]

...

Okay, I'll bite. I will be open to the alternative to deliberate practice. What does it involve?

[oushi]

...

Okay, I'll bite. I will be open to the alternative to deliberate practice. What does it involve?

Everything.

"The pathless path
is the path always under our feet
and since that path is always beneath us,
if we miss it, how stupid! - Longchenpa"

"Followers of the Way, if you know that fundamentally there is nothing to seek, you have settled your affairs. But because you
have little faith, you run about agitatedly, seeking your head which you think you have lost. - Linji"

Hard to go more direct. Maybe I can add that even deliberate practice is it, so even through deliberate actions we proceed on the path. Just don't take is as a shortcut, or a way of attaining realization.
"Do not be deceived. Though something can be attained by training, it only creates the Karma of rebirth and death. - Linji"
So what is the problem? Desire to attain something that we expect, and we deliberately act to make real. If if doesn't (and it is not our decision) we despair, blame ourselves (often others). Guilt appears, creating suffering. And how can we attain/become someone that we already are?
“An old master said:Yajnadatta thought he had lost his head. When he ceased from his frantic looking for it, he had nothing further to seek.”

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Everything.

Sure. But "everything" ain't the same thing as:

ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it

Is it?

Otherwise it would include not "ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it".

What your pointin at of course is right view. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

In that regard, here's somethin to really bake yer noodle: what happens when a desire is fulfilled? The desire disappears and in the moment of fulfillment there is, for a more or less tiny period of time, no longer a craving subject separate from a desired object. Perception is "non-dual". Then another dang desire pops up.

But in other words in that process of a desire gettin fulfilled what we have is a duality becomin a not-two. The "self" empties itself out into its fulfilled desire.

Now tell me if you can what's the difference between that process and the process of wakin up as a result of deliberate practice?

But see it's awful hard to accept and understand and integrate all that into your life. If you don't think so well then stick a fork into your hand and then try it. Or forgive Hitler and try it. It does take a huge amount of hard sweat. And not many people can persist in their practice long enough to even begin to see it. So how can we just tell everyone to get up from their cushions? Don't make sense to me.

"Everything" ain't so easy.

[oushi]

Everything.

Sure. But "everything" ain't the same thing as:

ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it

Is it?

Otherwise it would include not "ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it".

Good point, good point!
It is the same thing, precisely the same thing. There was never a difference between looking and ceasing from looking. That is why only ceasing can help, because there was nothing to find or change in the first place. That is why one cannot become Buddha. We may ask, what is the difference then? No difference. Seeing a difference is the only delusion. There is no difference. Now we may ask why there are mortals, and awakened ones? Are there?

"All living creatures of whatever class, born from eggs, from
wombs, from moisture, or by transformation whether with
form or without form, whether in a state of thinking or exempt
from thought-necessity, or wholly beyond all thought realms
all these are caused by Me to attain Unbounded Liberation
Nirvana. Yet when vast, uncountable, immeasurable numbers
of beings have thus been liberated, verily no being has been
liberated."

what happens when a desire is fulfilled? The desire disappears

Lately, I was thinking about that. From this statement we can perfectly see, that fulfillment equals to no desire. Beginning is the end, and the only painful part was the journey, chasing. I always thought that the joy of desirable moments must remain joyous even after enlightenment. And it does, as it is the same thing, as no desire. By giving up desires we are always joyous . Woof, what a beautiful thought.

Now tell me if you can what's the difference between that process and the process of wakin up as a result of deliberate practice?

Deliberate practice extends the time between those tiny portions of time. Those moments of fulfillment=nodesire. "Deliberate" is the only thing that divides sameness. Without deliberate actions (practice or not), there is oneness. By the illusion of "deliberate", which is actually not deliberate.
Free will is just an idea. When we give it up, we are free from being separate (Woof, another one ). Idea of the existence of free will, divided and enslaved people for millennia.

It does take a huge amount of hard sweat.

It doesn't, as lack of desire is the same as fulfillment, beginning is the end. Just drop the journey and you are there!

So how can we just tell everyone to get up from their cushions? Don't make sense to me.

Does it now?

"Everything" ain't so easy.

As it's also "ain't so easy". Just add this "ain't so easy" to everything. Accept it as a part. Then everything is complete. All parts are the same facets of a diamond.
Idea of freedom is the first moment of enslavement. We enslave ourselves. It is better to be free from freedom, then everything is truly free.
You are Buddha, just live with it.

None of my ideas is true, but they are pointing to something.

[Fu Ri Shin]

Everything.

"The pathless path
is the path always under our feet
and since that path is always beneath us,
if we miss it, how stupid! - Longchenpa"

"Followers of the Way, if you know that fundamentally there is nothing to seek, you have settled your affairs. But because you
have little faith, you run about agitatedly, seeking your head which you think you have lost. - Linji"

Hard to go more direct. Maybe I can add that even deliberate practice is it, so even through deliberate actions we proceed on the path. Just don't take is as a shortcut, or a way of attaining realization.
"Do not be deceived. Though something can be attained by training, it only creates the Karma of rebirth and death. - Linji"
So what is the problem? Desire to attain something that we expect, and we deliberately act to make real. If if doesn't (and it is not our decision) we despair, blame ourselves (often others). Guilt appears, creating suffering. And how can we attain/become someone that we already are?
“An old master said:Yajnadatta thought he had lost his head. When he ceased from his frantic looking for it, he had nothing further to seek.”

I like it and I agree with it. I just don't see how most practice gets away from this. Perhaps we'd better just leave it.