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 Post subject: God n stuff
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:27 pm 
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I thought about posting this reply on the Pure Land forum but then thought better of it and shall now let drop here.

Quote:
steveb1 wrote:
Thus: I simply asked a question about Amida Buddha and about his sutras and the Masters who taught about him.


May I please intrude in a forum where I do not belong and muddy the waters of the OP's question which I should not do?

:tongue:

Image

Image

http://books.google.com/books?id=nC5WPK ... e&q&f=true

Now that I have as usual annoyed everybody I shall leave.

Ta ta.

:rolleye:


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:42 am 
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Actually, in Christian theology, non-existence is one of God's attributes. Since "existence" means "to arise out of", and God does not arise from anything (unlike everything that exists), then non-existence is one of God's properties. Uncaused Cause, Prime Mover Unmoved, First Cause, - etc. - are words that indicate God's "place" outside of things that arise. Chains of cause and effect, arising, decay, re-arising, are traits of "Creation" but God stands outside these processes and is not influenced by them. Hence, in a very true Christian-theological sense, it is appropriate to say, "God is real, but does not exist".


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:57 am 
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Indeed. Buddha refused to comment on whether god exists or does not exist. He said we all have enough to stress over what with birth, sickness, old-age, dying, and all that wanting-the-greener-pasture-over-the-next-fence...

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:16 am 
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viniketa wrote:
Indeed. Buddha refused to comment on whether god exists or does not exist. He said we all have enough to stress over what with birth, sickness, old-age, dying, and all that wanting-the-greener-pasture-over-the-next-fence...

:namaste:

You sure about that? I remember him describing how Brahma was the first being born in our universe, wished for man to be created, and beings started appearing. The Buddha noted that it was only a coincidence that beings started to be born in this world, while Brahma incorrectly thought that he had created them.

Also, with Madhyamaka, you can't have a first cause. So there is no god.


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:33 am 
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tomamundsen wrote:
You sure about that? I remember him describing how Brahma was the first being born in our universe, wished for man to be created, and beings started appearing. The Buddha noted that it was only a coincidence that beings started to be born in this world, while Brahma incorrectly thought that he had created them.

Also, with Madhyamaka, you can't have a first cause. So there is no god.


Sure as anyone can be about what Buddha said and didn't say. I can't find the specific sutta (yes, it's in Pali), but this is the lounge so...

Do you recall the sutrā about Brahma? Do you recall how he said Brahma was 'born'? As for 'first cause', even with a capital "G", God doesn't necessarily mean a creator god...

As this is not a forum on comparative religion per the TOS, I'm done with the topic. :smile:

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:44 am 
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viniketa wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
You sure about that? I remember him describing how Brahma was the first being born in our universe, wished for man to be created, and beings started appearing. The Buddha noted that it was only a coincidence that beings started to be born in this world, while Brahma incorrectly thought that he had created them.

Also, with Madhyamaka, you can't have a first cause. So there is no god.


Sure as anyone can be about what Buddha said and didn't say. I can't find the specific sutta (yes, it's in Pali), but this is the lounge so...

Do you recall the sutrā about Brahma? Do you recall how he said Brahma was 'born'? As for 'first cause', even with a capital "G", God doesn't necessarily mean a creator god...

As this is not a forum on comparative religion per the TOS, I'm done with the topic. :smile:

:namaste:

It's in the Brahamajala Sutta, starting around verse 42.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:02 am 
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I went through few religions now, and the best description of God/Father that I can recall, is in Gospel of Thomas. Entire conflict between theists and atheists is irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:31 am 
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oushi wrote:
I went through few religions now, and the best description of God/Father that I can recall, is in Gospel of Thomas. Entire conflict between theists and atheists is irrelevant.


Hm, I don't think it's irrelevant. If the Theists are right then we'd all have to abandon the Dharma, tear down the monasteries and put up cathedrals.

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:36 am 
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Quote:
If the Theists are right then we'd all have to abandon the Dharma, tear down the monasteries and put up cathedrals.

Image How dare anyone question teh Ceiling Cat..... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:54 am 
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catmoon wrote:
oushi wrote:
I went through few religions now, and the best description of God/Father that I can recall, is in Gospel of Thomas. Entire conflict between theists and atheists is irrelevant.


Hm, I don't think it's irrelevant. If the Theists are right then we'd all have to abandon the Dharma, tear down the monasteries and put up cathedrals.

Before you tear down monasteries, go read the gospel. Not only will you preserve monasteries, but you will also enter cathedrals like home.

Quote:
His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:16 pm 
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plwk wrote:
How dare anyone question teh Ceiling Cat..... :lol:


To which one can only reply,

Image

Now where were we? Seems to me we did have a topic around here at one time....

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:47 pm 
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oushi wrote:
catmoon wrote:
oushi wrote:
I went through few religions now, and the best description of God/Father that I can recall, is in Gospel of Thomas. Entire conflict between theists and atheists is irrelevant.


Hm, I don't think it's irrelevant. If the Theists are right then we'd all have to abandon the Dharma, tear down the monasteries and put up cathedrals.

Before you tear down monasteries, go read the gospel. Not only will you preserve monasteries, but you will also enter cathedrals like home.

Quote:
His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."


Also...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:34 pm 
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viniketa wrote:
Indeed. Buddha refused to comment on whether god exists or does not exist.


I should have been more accurate in my statement. The Acintita Sutta is what I was thinking of:

Quote:
Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.


Brahmā is mentioned in a couple of suttas, including the Brahmajāla and Kevatta, but not as being 'born'. Brahmā is only one aspect of 'God', limited to creation. So, Buddha does not discuss whether or not Brahmā created the world. 'Brahman' (note spelling) would be closest to the 'God of Abraham'. Buddha does not mention Brahman to my knowledge, nor the 'personal' aspect of 'God', Īśvara. Reference to a 'servant of Brahman' should be spelled 'brahmin', though it's often spelled brahma or brahman.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:24 pm 
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tomamundsen wrote:
Also, with Madhyamaka, you can't have a first cause. So there is no god.


Not the God of Aquinas for sure.

But the Womb of the Thus-Come-One to whom it is appropriate to demonstrate devotion and which out of love embodied in human form to lift humanity out of suffering into ungraspable presence?

Well - why not?

I bow low to my master Samantabhadra with grateful tears. Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Swaha.

Beyond existence/nonexistence: ungraspability/radiance/love.

PS: There are countless Buddhas like grains of sand on the beach.

:jawdrop:


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:18 am 
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Does anyone know when NOW started, and when it's going to end?

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Yes.....
NOW
[or should that be.. THEN?]

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http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen).


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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:46 am 
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Osho wrote:
Yes.....
NOW
[or should that be.. THEN?]

Ok, lets do it again. When NOW ends next time, immediately raise your hand, and reply to this post afterward.

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:01 am 
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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Damn! I didn't predict that.

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 Post subject: Re: God n stuff
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:57 pm 
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OK we're in a new NOW now.
All hail the cat!

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" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
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