1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby futerko » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:03 am

Jyoti wrote:You will find that the Tibetan traditions, including the dialectic traditions accept the four noble truths literally. Generally these Tibetan buddhsim is based on skillful means...


The term "skillful means" entails that they aren't taken literally, and vice-versa. They are mutually exclusive terms.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Quiet Heart » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:34 am

mrbambocha wrote:Thanks alot for your responses and sorry for being a bit slow :D This is so new to me so its really hard to grasp it after all these years of influence from the western society.

So your saying that there is suffering, not that "Im suffering"? (1)
So the problem is that Im identifing myself with my feelings? (2)
That Im clinging/attaching myself to thing and expecting thing? (3)

And the solution is to be content with whatever happens? (4)
I dont understand how that is possible or if id want that.
How can you live a life without feeling and emotions? (5)
Isnt that to being apathetic? (6)

I couldnt imagine a life without pleasure and feeling, but I guess its because I dont know whats beyond that. (7)

----------------
:smile:
To answer the points:
1. There is "suffering", there is "joy", They are two sides of one coin....the coin of sentient human existance. You can't get one without the other. The concept "I'm suffering" is an illusion generated by your Ego and by not understanding that both suffering and joy are fundamentally one thing....two sides of a coin.
2. Exactly....you are identifying your "Self" with your "feelings" as if they were two different things. They aren't.
3. Exactly.
4. NOT necessarily being content or not content....you can still make that choice of like or dislike yourself....but just to be aware of the true nature of those two illusions....and then guide your actions by your understanding of that true nature.
5. You don't need to live a life without "feelings or emotions"....see #4...just realise the true nature of those illusions.
Why chase after those illusions....only "pretty baubles held in your hands...meaningless...given to pacify the fretfull crying of restless children".
6. No, done that way...as described...it's certainly NOT apathic.
7. It's called "freedom"...or maybe (hate to use this word, but anyhow) liberation.
As I said previously...letting the wind blow you wherever it may (within reason anyhow) and living there and now in accord with your understanding....now that's the greatest freedom.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby oushi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:18 am

seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:
seeker242 wrote:It's like being out in the ocean, with big waves, in a boat that is anchored vs one that isn't. The one that is not anchored gets blown all over the place and ends up far away, constantly being blown and drifting all over the place. Sometime out into the middle of nowhere, sometimes it gets blown up onto the rocks of some island somewhere. The one that is anchored still feels the waves hit it, but it does not drift away. It's stable and grounded and it stay where it is, because it's anchored. Something like that.

Which one is the analogy of equanimity?


The one not being blown all over the place by wind and waves. The anchored one, the one that does not drift away. And the chain and anchor of the boat is "wisdom" that is grounded in the seabed, with the seabed being "reality as it actually is". And the fixture that fixes the chain and anchor to the boat is "concentration". However, this thing called sila is needed in order to manufacture the fixture of concentration, that provides the link from the boat to the seabed, which provides grounded equanimity. Or something like that :smile:

I asked, because I assumed that this will be your answer. How come you can have equanimity from going against the waves? Equanimity is developed when you let go the desire of achievement, and you flow, letting everything be. You don't even try to judge you thoughts, all is released. How can you achieve such a state with an anchor? I would say, that this is the case when the boat is not anchored, and free. If you anchor your boat and dragon like waves come, you will drown.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby seeker242 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:52 pm

oushi wrote:I asked, because I assumed that this will be your answer. How come you can have equanimity from going against the waves? Equanimity is developed when you let go the desire of achievement, and you flow, letting everything be. You don't even try to judge you thoughts, all is released. How can you achieve such a state with an anchor? I would say, that this is the case when the boat is not anchored, and free. If you anchor your boat and dragon like waves come, you will drown.


It's really not "going against the waves". The point is that you are not disturbed by waves of feeling and emotion. You remain "unperturbed" by sense impressions of feeling and emotion or other impressions, whether they are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. And not that the sense impressions cease to occur. You are "anchored" by wisdom which allows you to see that this phenomena is empty and not worth clinging to.

If you would like to discuss the particulars of the specific wording of the particular analogy, that kind of misses the whole point of the underlying meaning IMO, AKA remaining unperturbed in the presence of these impressions. :)
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby oushi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:56 pm

seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:I asked, because I assumed that this will be your answer. How come you can have equanimity from going against the waves? Equanimity is developed when you let go the desire of achievement, and you flow, letting everything be. You don't even try to judge you thoughts, all is released. How can you achieve such a state with an anchor? I would say, that this is the case when the boat is not anchored, and free. If you anchor your boat and dragon like waves come, you will drown.


It's really not "going against the waves". The point is that you are not disturbed by waves of feeling and emotion. You remain "unperturbed" by sense impressions of feeling and emotion or other impressions, whether they are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. And not that the sense impressions cease to occur. You are "anchored" by wisdom which allows you to see that this phenomena is empty and not worth clinging to.

If you would like to discuss the particulars of the specific wording of the particular analogy, that kind of misses the whole point of the underlying meaning IMO, AKA remaining unperturbed. :)

I have nothing against your explanation, as now it seems to be valid. But then, what is wrong with the boat that is not anchored? What is the problem with it? As you can see, analogy can be understood in many ways.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby viniketa » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:51 pm

oushi wrote:But then, what is wrong with the boat that is not anchored? What is the problem with it? As you can see, analogy can be understood in many ways.


What is 'wrong' with the 'waves'? :thinking:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:59 pm

viniketa wrote:What is 'wrong' with the 'waves'? :thinking:


I'm not ready to drink pus from a glass yet like the hungry ghosts do. I prefer nice fresh water at the moment.

:stirthepot:

Both Buddha and Hitler are space/radiance/love.

Believe it yet? If I said yes I'd be lyin.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby KeithBC » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:42 pm

mrbambocha wrote:1. All things are suffering. (all things cause suffering)
Isnt suffering a natural part of life? Isnt suffering good as a driving force to improve? If we never would suffer we wouldn't know how pleasure feelt. Isnt the suffering what motivates us to progress and improve at work, with family and on your inner path (so we get more pleasure)? How can all things be suffering? Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?

Poor translation. "All things are unsatisfactory." Nothing is perfect. There is an element of unsatisfactoriness in everything. None of the things you listed is totally satisfactory. They either aren't enough or they end too soon, or there is something inadequate about them.

Yes, suffering is a motivation to improve. Yet the "improvement" does not end the suffering. The best it can do is replace one suffering with another.
2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something. Its the desire to succeed at work, with family and on your inner path that drives you to put in time and effort to progress in life. If there where no reward for the effort no one would do anything, right? So isnt desire a natural thing aswell to make progress in life?

Feelings continue whether there is desire or not. Drive to achieve = suffering. Succeeding at work - suffering. Being with family = suffering. Progress in life = suffering.

Desire is the wish that things would be other than they are. Suffering is also the wish that things would be other than they are. Desire and suffering are more closely related than mere cause and effect. They are one and the same thing!
Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?
Equanimous.

Om mani padme hum
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