Unorthodox Ideas

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Astus » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:40 am

DarwidHalim,

The quote from the Tao of Sudden Enlightenment is a text written by Dazhu Huihai who was a disciple of Mazu and so a contemporary of Baizhang, master of Huangbo, in the same Hongzhou school. It's nothing to do with Taoism. That's why I've chosen that as a good source of explaining the teaching of no mind.

As for your explanation with statue, you successfully made up several levels of reification. Fortunately, madhyamaka uses only two truths, even if Jizang (Chinese reformer of madhyamaka) created a 4×2 truths system. One is stuck in ignorance as long as there is grasping a concept. Without abiding in any idea, there is freedom. Even if you create a hundred levels of larger and smaller areas of conceptual attachment, it's still mental proliferation. Without proliferation there is nirvana (MMK 18.5), it is the buddha (MMK 22.15). The ending of objectification, proliferation is within the scope of arhats too (DN 21, MN 18, SN 22.53).

By the way. prasanga is just a method, and those who apply that to teach people are the prasangika. Other forms of teaching, like mind only and even abhidharma, are used to bring people to liberation, freedom from attachment to ideas, and not just an idea of liberation.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Jnana » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:58 am

:good:
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:07 pm

Although on paper, the teaching of zen or any other direct method supposedly bring up a liberation from samsara and liberation for omniscience, in practice and probably in most cases, we will stuck somewhere for the liberation of omniscience. And that is the one, that differentiate the whole bodhisattva from bhumi and arhat.

Frankly, I do not see why this is orthodox view, because if we can see the whole system, there is a reason why we can stick somewhere for liberation of omniscience.

However, if all practitioners, when they do this direct method, can really liberate as well in omniscience, then we can accept that this ten bhumi and arhat is orthodox view.

By the way, in Theravada, they never accept arhat has lack of omniscience. The reason why arhat doesnt have similar power with Buddha can be something like a taboo subject to be discussed.

So, the arhat here should be seen from Mahayana perspective, where there is a reason for that.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:12 pm

Once y'all have finished digging holes in the water be sure to fill them in so that nobody falls into them by mistake and hurts themselves!
:namaste:
PS Sorry, couldn't help myself! 10 pages later and still...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Tilopa » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:28 pm

Greg! WTF? You're here again..wow ...can hardly belive it...amazing....awesome....kick some ass bro!
Seriously though it's good to see you back. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Astus » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:31 pm

DarwidHalim,

Theravada recognises the difference between a buddha and an arhat, in terms of certain qualities and abilities, but not in liberation. The reason of their difference, just as in early Mahayana, is that a bodhisattva accumulates immeasurable merits through aeons of practice. Sudden teachings say that there is no need for such a long process, that they have a superior teaching, therefore buddhahood is accessible (in this life, in the intermediate state, or the next life) because of the inherent buddha-nature.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby viniketa » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:35 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Once y'all have finished digging holes in the water be sure to fill them in so that nobody falls into them by mistake and hurts themselves!
:lol:

Nice thing about digging in water, the holes are quickly filled!

Astus wrote:By the way. prasanga is just a method, and those who apply that to teach people are the prasangika.


Thank you for the correction, Astus.

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby Jnana » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:52 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:By the way, in Theravada, they never accept arhat has lack of omniscience.

Actually, they do. It's stated explicitly in the Pāli Paṭisambhidāmagga as well as the Theravāda commentaries. It's only a small number of modern Theravādin revisionists who don't accept that a Buddha possesses qualities that are superior to arhats, or that the bodhisattva path requires superior levels of development in comparison to what is required by the śrāvaka path.
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Re: Unorthodox Ideas

Postby oldbob » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:40 am

Many really excellent considerations of unorthodox ideas. :good: :good: :good:

Intermission time; next round coming up :smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LopZoqOKPs

:cheers:
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