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Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter? - Dhamma Wheel

Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
villkorkarma
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Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby villkorkarma » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:03 pm

is it possible to have a evil behaviour and still proceed to nirvana?
I ve readed about the zenmaster that was hitting his students...

And i ve readed about killers that was being enlightened after they heard about buddhas teachings.

How can this be?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:41 pm

Of course not. Moral virtue is the necessary foundation of any real spiritual practice.

As for Zen masters hitting students, well, sometimes it is the compassionate thing to do and not a product of anger.

And as for a killer reaching nibbana, that's after he had repented his old ways. No one is beyond hope.

_/|\_

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James the Giant
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby James the Giant » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:16 pm

IIRC there were some warlords in ancient Japan who were considered to be... perhaps not enlightened, but certainly past stream entry. They commanded their armies, fought battles, killed people, burned villages, etc.
I don't have any references or anything though...
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

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kirk5a
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:18 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 am

Monks have blessed tanks in Sri Lanka and Zen "masters" have endorsed killing. Wars were waged in Christ's name, Thailand and Burma fought to steal great Buddha statues from each other. So what's new?
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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e: [email protected]..

alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby alan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:48 am

Hi Ben, James;
D.T. Suzuki was an exponent of Japanese militarism, yet some consider him to be worth reading even today.

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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:56 am

Hi Alan
Yes, I have read DT Suzuki myself and I also believe he is worth reading.
However, I maintain that a defining characteristic of a sotapanna is perfect sila.

As to DT Suzuki's involvement in WWII and claims of or speculation regarding his spiritual attainment - I'll leave that to others.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

plwk
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby plwk » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:05 am


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kirk5a
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:17 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby alan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:36 am

I was just trying to tease out a reaction from our Zen friends.
Here are a couple of interesting reads. You may be surprised. http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/ZenAtWar.

edit--cleaned the presentation.
There are other books telling the same sad story.

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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:57 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:08 am

"The reaction from our Zen friends?" :)

I don't have feel the need to protect Japanese Zen clergy. Some people have poked holes in Brian Victoria scholarship - it seems that some of statements were taken out of context and somewhat misinterpreted. But in any case there was quite a bit of support for the war among the Zen teachers with a few exceptions that were clamped down on.

Even very insightful and intelligent people can get swept up by mass mentality like in Germany and Japan before the war. I wouldn't think they were enlightened but they could still possess a degree of insight in other matters. It is not a trivial task to be in the world but not of the world, to have the finger on the pulse and to see beyond the currents of time.

Of course some commentators (like Thomas Cleary) believe that Zen in Japan has degenerated but from what I hear there are still pockets of the real deal here and there and hopefully the revival of Western interest will help to reinvigorate Japanese Zen and reconnect it with its origins where such connection has been weakened or lost.

I remember on the defunct ESangha, a Japanese Soto practitioner matilda often came into conflict on substantial issues with Western Zen teachers which also shows that may be assuming too much when we extrapolate from Western Zen to Japanese Zen. What we see is often just the tip of the iceberg (and often the wrong iceberg!) and there is invariably much more to the tradition.
_/|\_

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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:12 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

alan
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby alan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:14 am

What we see is a tradition that was pro-war for generations.

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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:21 am

Hi Alan,
Its getting off-topic.
Let's try and stay focused on Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:23 am

Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
_/|\_

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poto
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby poto » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:16 am

I disagree with Ben. While an arahant may have perfect sila, a sotapanna might not.

Sotapannas have not yet extinguished anger, hatred, aversion and many forms of craving. Ignorance may also arise in a sotapanna. An arahant OTOH has extinguished all of these things.

It seems to me the sutta Ben quoted regarding the fruits of stream entry could be taken to mean an ariya further along on the path. I do not think it is wise to assume that mere stream entry equates with automatically receiving the fruits of stream entry. I think it would still require one to be diligent and strive in earnest in order to bear the fruit of stream entry.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:28 am

Greetings Poto,

I'm inclined to agree.

I think I can recall instances of ariya breaking minor Vinaya rules, but I've got no idea where to start looking in order to back that claim up. No wait, maybe I do... oh wait, forget it... Channa's suicide, that will do. Attempted suicide is a low-level Vinaya offense. If a bhikkhu breaks (or more importantly, can break) Vinaya, how can they be said to have perfect sila?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:38 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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