Females who achieved rainbow body

[mutsuk]

Going back to the topic of that thread :

There is one recent woman who reached rainbow body. She is famed as Arta Lhamo (a-rta lha-mo) or Tamdrin Lhamo (rta-mgrin lha-mo). She was the daughter of Nyag-bla Byang-chub rdo-rje (the master of ChNNorbu Rinpoche) and Dri-med dbang-mo. She was born in 1923 and studied in details the termas of her father. Among these, those she mastered were :
— the bKa’ ‘dus chos kyi rgya mtsho,
— the Phag-mo’i rlung khrid, which was her main practice,
— the (unnamed) cycle of bCud-len teaching which she practiced for 21 weeks, followed by a week of Sky Chülen (nam-mkha’ bcud-len),
— the sealed teachings of the Yangti Nagpo which his father had not given to more than 4 persons (the text says 5 but lists only 4) : 1. herself, 2. Garwang Dorje, 3. Tertön Dorje Tsegyel, 4. Khenpo Khedrup.

In her father’s house she also listened to Nyingthik teachings numerous times.
She was also destined to be a consort for Tokden Shakya Shrî but there were obstacles and this did not happened.

At the end of her life, on the night of the 27th of the 2nd tibetan month of year 1980, her mind absorbed into the state of contemplation and her body remained sitting for 7 days, after which it started to “melt” (zhu) into lights and decrease in size, first reaching a dimension of about 26 cm and then a “mkhyid” lenght (the mesasure equal to that in between the thumb and little finger in extension). It is reported that numerous people witnessed this and that those who had said bad things about her during her lifetime formulated regrets...

source:
bSod-nams don-grub, "sNga 'gyur rnying ma'i 'ja' lus grub pa'i skyes bu 'ga' zhig ngo sprod mdor tsam zhus pa", Bod ljongs nang bstan, 2, 1990, pp. 1-15.

[Jyoti]

Why? Because thinking that one shares the alayavijnana with others simply means you don't understand that notion. This was so ridiculous...

The notion of the one consciousness emanating the bodies of other beings still hold true in my present position with respect to the previous thesis, except I revised the point regarding the emanation of other consciousnesses, viz. the one consciousness did not emanate the consciousnesses of these other beings, and that the other beings have their own individual streams of consciousness, they similarity emanate the bodies of the other beings, including those of ours, except the consciousnesses.

No, you have shown you don't understand the teachings of Dzogchen, starting with the fact that you think the visions are the object of the eye consciousness. This simply disqualifies you from the start. It means you don't know what is the natural state, what is its rtsal, and what is the nature of the visions.

You don't know the yogacara's description of the nature state, the part I point to 'abiding' refer to the abiding of the yogacara which is the equavalent of your abiding in rigpa. Also the togal's perception of the special channel connecting the eyes which lead to visionary development are none other than internal perception of the eye consciousness. In other path without prior knowledge of this channel is not a problem when the eye consciousness is being integrated with the intellect, since the vision will manifest when the eye consciousness is being utilize as the medium of perfuming of the seeds.

As Sönam said, it's not because you have no actual experience of this that all others are like you. Actually I know of a french scholar/practitioner who has crossed steps in Thogel that you would not even suspect.
So put down what ?

It mean put down your concerned about this issues which in reality is beyond anyone direct experience. Direct experience means manifesting such the rainbow body and/or light body oneself. If one merely follow description from books without apprehending the reason of the transformation and claim it as true, this is least acceptable. At least I have stated what I perceived to be the reason. A reason is hard to refute without having refuted the elements that is supporting it.

Well clarifying your projections regarding the rdul-lus for instance would be a good opportunity to avoid misleading others with your misconceptions. That is of importance in my opinion.

I already stated the reason and explanation, if you ignored a valid reason without having comprehend the significance, that would be similarly misleading others with your arrogance.

You are totally deluded. Yogacara is a sutra-based teaching and Dzogchen is the 9th yana. You certainly cannot compare and if you think there is nothing else in Dzogchen, it simply means you need to read more and study more Dzogchen texts because there is way more than you'll ever find in the Yogacara tradition.

That is what the Tibetan Vajrayana traditions trying to condition you to think, you may think you are following dzogchen, actually the dzogchen tradition is heavily influence by Tibetan Vajrayana. The vajrayana teaching is of skillful means, it viewed the provisional means of other buddhist school of the mahayana as inferior, this is actually not a problem, the problem is it failed to take into consideration the teaching of definitive meaning also exist in the mahayana. The teaching of definitive meaning belong to the ekayana, viz. it is the one path from beginning to end, all the yanas exist due to its absence, when it exists, all the other yanas are rendered indefinitive. There is no 9 yanas, the 3 internal and external tantras belong to the mahayana, together with the 2 lower yanas, there is only 3 yanas in reality.

Would you mind sticking to the topic of females having reached the Rainbow Body? Do you have anything interesting to share on that subject?

Sure, if I know I will share it.

Jyoti

[mutsuk]

Also the togal's perception of the special channel connecting the eyes which lead to visionary development are none other than internal perception of the eye consciousness. In other path without prior knowledge of this channel is not a problem when the eye consciousness is being integrated with the intellect, since the vision will manifest when the eye consciousness is being utilize as the medium of perfuming of the seeds.

You apparently don't understand the notion of "door of arising" ('char gzhi). If you think the visions of Thogel are the objects of the eye consciousness, then you are simply ignorant of Thogel. There are two channels reaching the Water-Lamp, the pure and the impure one. The pure is the one through which the rtsal of rig-pa arises, it is not linked to eye consciousness at all. If you had done dark retreats you would have witnessed that easily.

It mean put down your concerned about this issues which in reality is beyond anyone direct experience.

There is no reason to do that. You claim that there are light manifestations associated with the rdul-lus (atomic body). This contradicts what Longchenpa says in the Theg-mchog-mdzod? Who are we to believe? You who don't understand the teachings clearly and tries to put forward Chan and Yogacara as able to compare with Dzogchen? Or Longchenpa himself? Hummm, I really wonder...

If one merely follow description from books without apprehending the reason of the transformation and claim it as true, this is least acceptable.

This is what you do, based on flawed sources.

At least I have stated what I perceived to be the reason. A reason is hard to refute without having refuted the elements that is supporting it.

You have not supported or demonstrated anything. You have put forward your own fantasy. I can quote you the passage on the Theg-mchog-mdzod which shows that your idea about atomic body is not what the Dzogchen texts discuss. You are not able to get over the conception trap that anything Chinese/Chan/Yogacara is superior... Even Fahai Lama went as far as stating such stupidities...

I already stated the reason and explanation,

Your reason and explanations are wrong.

that would be similarly misleading others with your arrogance.

Who talks about arrongance? With points like this you are simply going to lead the mods here and have the thread blocked. Try to get hold of yourself and stick to the subject.

That is what the Tibetan Vajrayana traditions trying to condition you to think, you may think you are following dzogchen, actually the dzogchen tradition is heavily influence by Tibetan Vajrayana. The vajrayana teaching is of skillful means, it viewed the provisional means of other buddhist school of the mahayana as inferior, this is actually not a problem, the problem is it failed to take into consideration the teaching of definitive meaning also exist in the mahayana. The teaching of definitive meaning belong to the ekayana, viz. it is the one path from beginning to end, all the yanas exist due to its absence, when it exists, all the other yanas are rendered indefinitive. There is no 9 yanas, the 3 internal and external tantras belong to the mahayana, together with the 2 lower yanas, there is only 3 yanas in reality.

Then all the Dzogchen Tantras demonstrating the superiority of the 9th yanas are wrong? Is that what you are implying? Only Chan and Yogacara are right? That's it ?

Would you mind sticking to the topic of females having reached the Rainbow Body? Do you have anything interesting to share on that subject?

Sure, if I know I will share it.
Jyoti

Well then please open another thread and leave this one on the subject of females having reached rainbow body.

[Pero]

Going back to the topic of that thread :

There is one recent woman who reached rainbow body. She is famed as Arta Lhamo (a-rta lha-mo) or Tamdrin Lhamo (rta-mgrin lha-mo). She was the daughter of Nyag-bla Byang-chub rdo-rje (the master of ChNNorbu Rinpoche) and Dri-med dbang-mo. She was born in 1923 and studied in details the termas of her father. Among these, those she mastered were :
— the bKa’ ‘dus chos kyi rgya mtsho,
— the Phag-mo’i rlung khrid, which was her main practice,
— the (unnamed) cycle of bCud-len teaching which she practiced for 21 weeks, followed by a week of Sky Chülen (nam-mkha’ bcud-len),
— the sealed teachings of the Yangti Nagpo which his father had not given to more than 4 persons (the text says 5 but lists only 4) : 1. herself, 2. Garwang Dorje, 3. Tertön Dorje Tsegyel, 4. Khenpo Khedrup.

In her father’s house she also listened to Nyingthik teachings numerous times.
She was also destined to be a consort for Tokden Shakya Shrî but there were obstacles and this did not happened.

At the end of her life, on the night of the 27th of the 2nd tibetan month of year 1980, her mind absorbed into the state of contemplation and her body remained sitting for 7 days, after which it started to “melt” (zhu) into lights and decrease in size, first reaching a dimension of about 26 cm and then a “mkhyid” lenght (the mesasure equal to that in between the thumb and little finger in extension). It is reported that numerous people witnessed this and that those who had said bad things about her during her lifetime formulated regrets...

source:
bSod-nams don-grub, "sNga 'gyur rnying ma'i 'ja' lus grub pa'i skyes bu 'ga' zhig ngo sprod mdor tsam zhus pa", Bod ljongs nang bstan, 2, 1990, pp. 1-15.

Thanks a lot for sharing that!
I wonder if the fifth is Norbu Rinpoche, since he taught trekcho from (a) Yangti Nagpo of CCD last year. Although even if this is one and the same he probably got it from CCD's son and not CCD himself.

[mutsuk]

Thanks a lot for sharing that!
I wonder if the fifth is Norbu Rinpoche, since he taught trekcho from (a) Yangti Nagpo of CCD last year. Although even if this is one and the same he probably got it from CCD's son and not CCD himself.

Yes I wonder too. I'm pretty sure this must be Norbu Rinpoche but it's a wonder why the author did not mention him. Politics maybe? Arta Lhamo has left a lengthy testament too (by lengthy I mean about 3 pages, usually these are much shorter). There is also a biography of her available from tibetbooks but I haven't seen that. There are surely a lot of infos there.

[humanpreta]

[Pero]

Sorry guys but this behaviour is pretty lame.

[heart]

Sorry guys but this behaviour is pretty lame.

what?

/magnus

[Jyoti]

Some of the historical record of the rainbow bodies of female dzogchen practitioners from chinese
sources. I am unable to translate Tibetan names from chinese to english, so I merely translate the
signs of the rainbow bodies below the chinese texts.

【索郎忠瑪】

索郎忠瑪，新龍縣人，伏藏大師列繞郎巴之空行母，一生修持密法，結集了
許多伏藏品。在五、六十年代，將伏藏大師能開口說話的蓮師像和金剛亥母秘密
隱藏保護，後來交付於法王如意寶晉美彭措，當時她說︰「這是你前世的伏藏品，
如今我交還於你本人。」以此緣起，法王弘法利生事業越來越興盛廣大。1976年
她八十多歲時在嘎絨寺圓寂，幾天後其法體縮小到一肘，火化時出現的舍利中有
如同水晶球相者，如今仍可現見。此由阿江喇嘛口述。

...the body shrinked to the length of elbow, after cremation, relics appeared like form of crystal....

【让如多吉（觉性金刚）和其空行母】
最近印度新德里出版的辽西堪布著作的《大圆满大史》旁述中说：“大成就者嘛呢仁钦的一百多
名弟子在色绕觉刚圣山成就虹身，他们所住的山洞、闭关房遗址至今犹存。如今我回忆起的事
情还有很多，如新龙的让如多吉（觉性金刚）和其空行母圆寂时身体缩小为一肘，其遗体至今
还在宁莫寺；

...the body shrinked to the length of elbow

【当珍拉姆】
新龙喇嘛菩提金刚之女（当珍拉姆）在西藏贡觉县成就虹身。
当珍拉姆（1923-1980），在西藏贡觉县出生，父亲为伏藏大师香秋多杰（菩提金刚）（噶陀法
脉传承），母亲名为子美王母。她从小便对密法有大信心，听闻过父亲的十四部伏藏品传承，
曾以头发治愈了他人的眼病，用乳汁治好了当地的传染病。她对亲人无贪，对冤仇无嗔，长大
后还与家里的仇人成了家。一生中摄受了众多弟子，留下了不少甚深的教言，1980年（57岁）2
月27日通知弟子说：“欲见从速，晚了不要抱怨。”弟子们会集后，空行母开示说：“有生必有死
，有聚必有散。”并说本来只五十二年寿命，但以上师的加持又延长了五年，并嘱咐过世后不必
替她念经，表明其生死已得自在。说毕即现示圆寂，数日后身体缩小成26厘米高，为当时几千
人所共见。此曾于《西藏佛教》刊载。

...the body shrinked to the height of 26 cm.

【澤王忠嘎】

《西藏日報》和1990年第 2期的《西藏佛教》刊載︰1960年，噶瑪巴第十六
世如畢多吉之姊妹澤王忠嘎（她從小皈依佛門，對密法和上師皆深信不疑，常修
無上密法）。在康定一所農場圓寂後，其身縮小為一尺，當時親眼見到的人，如
今仍在世。

...the body shrinked to a foot's length...

【阿曼】
阿曼(1943-1979)，西藏人，1943年出生，父名安九，母名秋央，在
上師前得到殊勝的竅訣後，雖無機會長時修習，但內證已經非凡，36歲時圓寂，
數日後身體縮小到半庹高（一庹為兩臂平伸時的距離）。

...the body shrinked to a length between the spreading of the two hands.

【意拉】
1980年，西藏昌都地区贡觉县尼姑达珍拉姆去世，遗体存放在一个大紫铜盆内，七天后躯干缩
小至26厘米。同年，西藏昌都地区察雅玉拉比尼逝世，遗体虹化，仅留一肘大小（玉拉生前身
高1．70米以上）。

意拉(1901－1981)，西藏扎雅縣汪達區人，依止過晉美多傑和堪布阿窮，修行十分精進，經常
濟苦救貧，饒益眾生，80歲（1981年）圓寂，身體縮小成一肘高，火化時天空遍滿了彩光，
此為當地許多人現量見到。

...the body shrinked to the length of elbow, after cremation, the sky filled with rainbow light...

【覺姆滿莫】
據敦珠仁波切的《西藏古代佛教史》記載︰覺姆滿莫(1248－1283)，父親為
密乘大師多吉加波，母親名為班瑪華仲。13歲時，一次在山上放牧中睡著後，於
似夢非夢中現見了空行剎土並獲得了殊勝的伏藏密續。從此之後大開神通，行為
異於常人，當時人們以為已著魔，稱其為「瘋行者」。後生起厭世之心，離開了
家鄉，遇上了伏藏大師格日曲王等成就者，自此一切緣起都已成熟。36歲時，即
1283年七月初十，在曲扎山上，她與兩弟子一起會供後，三人猶如雄鷹飛空，不
捨肉身而直接飛往烏金蓮師紅色銅山剎土。此情景恰巧被當地牧人們見到，牧人
們在食用了會供的加持品後也都得到了殊勝的等持境界。

...without abandoning the body, she flew directly to the land of Padmasambhava.

【空行母秋央桑母】
拉薩市七水縣修聖寺的空行母秋央桑母從小信佛，後來修持無上大圓滿密法，
頓悟了諸法實相，並經常示現無礙的神通。當時拉薩的一些名人也常去求其神通
指點。1952年，在其 130歲時示現圓寂，當時瑞相紛呈，身體縮小如一隻雞身大
小，人們將遺體起塔供養，可惜已於文革時毀壞。

...the body shrinked to the size of a chicken...

【丹珍翁姆】
空行母秋央桑母的傳承弟子丹珍翁姆一直在 無垢光尊者曾經修行過的夏勝山洞裡修持，1980年
圓寂時成就智慧光蘊，只剩下 一點頭髮和指甲。

...only left with some hairs and nails.

【達饒至尊姆】
丹增翁姆的弟子達饒至尊姆，在1982年圓寂時天空中連續七天 出現了彩虹等甚多成就相，身體
也明顯縮小，許多見聞過的人因此而對無上密法生起了極大的信心。以上事例由拉薩喇嘛單珍
曲桑和土鄧扎巴口述。

...for seven days the sky appeared with rainbow and many sign of accomplishment, the body has
clearly shrinked...

Below may not qualified as rainbow body of trekcho, but is common among pureland practitioners,
nonetheless it is included by Kenpo Soda Jit in 密宗虹身成就略記.

【郭正珍居士】

郭正珍居士，女，家住四川省遂寧市射洪縣洋溪鎮，1991年由其女婿綿陽喇
榮金剛法會的尚崇貴居士介紹，皈依法王晉美彭措仁波切，從此淨密雙修。聽到
法王發願凡誠心念完一百萬遍阿彌陀佛聖號者必加持其往生西方極樂世界後，於
是更加精進念佛。1992年農曆11月，圓滿了一百萬遍阿彌陀佛聖號，這時，從前
僅能散盤的她，卻已能輕鬆自然地結起了跏趺坐。老居士的兒媳見她整天盤腿坐
在椅上，問道︰「你整天這樣盤著腳不疼嗎？」她說︰「不疼，這個身體本來就
是虛幻不實的軀殼。」農曆11月29日上午 9點，郭老居士跏趺坐於竹椅上，兩手
定印安祥往生，時年72歲。30日，匆匆趕來的尚居士和射洪東山寺方丈隆友法師
及幾位居士在離郭老居士家數十米的地方，看見很多村民朝著空中指指點點，不
斷發出驚歎的聲音，只見房頂上空有一直徑兩米左右的五色光團，十幾分鐘後才
逐漸消失。下葬時，她的身體仍然十分柔軟，這使很多金剛道友增上了對解脫的
信心。

...five colors light circle in the radius of two meters appear above the roof of her room, gradually
disappeared ten minutes later. During burial, her body still remained soft...

【圓照比丘尼】

陝西省終南山裡有一座觀音山，中有一小寺院，只住一位上百歲的圓照老尼
師。她青年時代修學顯宗，曾講過幾次《法華經》，中年時依止貢嘎活佛學了密
宗，平時頗有神異。1992年下半年老法師重病時對她的徒弟們講，下世仍要來觀
音山傳佛法，並為方便弘法，將轉成男身，還說了下世父母的姓名。老法師用密
宗破瓦法走得很自在，火化時，許多人在天空中看見佛菩薩的形相，第二天清理
出骨灰時，萬里無雲的天空出現了萬丈高的觀世音菩薩，全身白色，在鳴龍上站
立，手拿甘露瓶和楊柳枝，右邊站一小童。其舍利呈綠色，心臟未壞，骨花發光，
此為圓松等所親見。

...after cremation, many people saw the sky appeared the form of buddhas....her relics appeared green
in color, the heart remained...

【明慧比丘尼】
明慧比丘尼，四川雅安人，1989年到五明佛學院學法，後獲得堪姆（法師）
稱號。1993年9月1日在上師前聽完《大圓滿心性休息三處三善引導文》後，因患
癌症到漢地治療，後回到雅安金鳳寺，圓寂前半月身體已不覺病痛。在生病的那
段時間裡，她對面的牆上始終掛著金剛上師法王如意寶、阿彌陀佛與觀世音菩薩
像，而且神智一直都很清醒。1994年3月1日，明慧圓寂前，給服侍的道友講說了
般若空性，並發願將來必定救度她們，便雙足跏趺、雙手合掌，安詳圓寂，圓寂
後身體還是一直保持著合掌、盤腿的姿勢。在寺院中火化後，骨頭呈現紅黃綠三
種顏色。大圓滿續部指出上根人修大圓滿六月即可成就，從明慧1993年9月1日聽
完大圓滿引導法，到1994年3月1日圓寂，前後正好六個月時間。如法王在《勝利
道歌﹒天鼓妙音》中說︰「六月修要得解脫。」《金剛帳續》中也說︰「不動信
解行六月，金剛持地能獲得。」又《莊嚴誓言續》說︰「由六月不動，信解及恭
敬，獲金剛持地。」以續部所示觀察其圓寂前後的征相，已得解脫無疑。此在新
加坡《獅城潮音》97年第三期上曾有登載。

...after cremation, the skull bone appeared red, yellow and green colors...

【包玉珍居士】

包玉珍居士，女，遼寧省丹東市人。晚年時長年臥病，後來有幸得到法王如
意寶晉美彭措的密法傳承和甘露丸等加持品，並皈依為三寶弟子。1996年 5月其
家屬又親自到五明佛學院請法王如意寶和門措上師為她唸經加持，又請學院的幾
位大活佛和僧眾唸經加持並回向，家中子女亦為其大量放生，此後病痛明顯減輕。
1997年 7月的一天，包玉珍對子女說︰「過一個月我要走。」一月後果然自在安
祥往生了，時年76歲。往生8小時後頂門猶熱，3天後火化出舍利子 100余顆。其
家人又請法王及僧眾唸經加持回向，並在家中放生多次，後其骨灰也大多變為舍
利花。這些情景為當時在場的眾多人和其子女親眼所見，更增加和堅定了大家修
學佛法的信心。

...eight hours after her passing, her crown remained warm, three days later, after cremation 100 relics
come out...

Below is the case based on the practice of 'method of accomplishment of the dakinis' 空行母成就法.

【淨檢比丘尼】

又據《洛陽佛教》1997年第 6期刊登的隆蓮法師的《心經講記》載︰「中國
的第一位比丘尼淨檢，晉朝人，當時由於沒有外國來的比丘尼，淨檢等尼直接從
比丘中受比丘尼戒，當受戒時異香芬馥，撲鼻而來，這說明她的功德大，得戒殊
勝。她七十多歲要圓寂那天，眾人又聞到了受戒時的香氣，並見到天上一道祥光，
從光束中下來一位手拿花束的女人，淨檢告訴眾人她需走了，教眾人好好修持，
就與這個女人牽著手從彩虹中上天了。這是非常真實的事，是梁代高僧寶唱寫的，
後來西藏盛傳『空行母成就法』時，才知道淨檢是修此法最高成就者，修這種法
最高的成就是肉身成就，次一等是身子走衣服不帶，再次一等的身子會縮小，成
就了就往生空行母的淨土去了。

...at her age of 70, the day of her pass, people smelled the same fragance of her receiving the
precepts, and saw the sky appeared a light, from the light came down a woman holding a bouquet,
淨檢 told the people she need to go and instruct them to practice properly, then holding the hand of
the woman, from within the rainbow light they ascented to the sky.

Source: 密宗虹身成就略記, 噶陀十万虹身成就, Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism.


Jyoti

[Pero]

Sorry guys but this behaviour is pretty lame.

what?

/magnus

Stuff like:

Do you look like that image? If so, let's go on a date and I'll set you straight. XXX

etc....

[humanpreta]

Sorry guys but this behaviour is pretty lame.

what?

/magnus

Stuff like:

Do you look like that image? If so, let's go on a date and I'll set you straight. XXX

etc....

C'mon Pero, It's all in good fun and harmless. DW is a sausage party. Jyoti is a big girl and can take it--she's out of control and can use a some straight settin. A little levity ain't ever killed nobody. Come on old boy ....you dig?

[humanpreta]

Stuff like:

Do you look like that image? If so, let's go on a date and I'll set you straight. XXX

etc....[/quote]

C'mon Pero, It's all in good fun and harmless. DW is a sausage party. Jyoti is a big girl and can take it--she's out of control and can use a some straight settin. A little levity ain't ever killed nobody. Come on old boy ....you dig?

Buddhists often suppress their ids. Mine's probably too lose...what can I say? That's what happens when I see a pretty image. Don't mean to offend no one.

[/quote]

[Andrew108]

@humanpreta. This is way out of line. It's hard to believe that a practitioner would act this way.

[asunthatneversets]

C'mon Pero, It's all in good fun and harmless. DW is a sausage party. Jyoti is a big girl and can take it--she's out of control and can use a some straight settin. A little levity ain't ever killed nobody. Come on old boy ....you dig?

Buddhists often suppress their ids. Mine's probably too lose...what can I say? That's what happens when I see a pretty image. Don't mean to offend no one.

It's all in good fun and harmless if everyone is on the same page, but singling out a member of the opposite sex with some sort of half cocked cat call on a forum such as this, is hardly a demonstration of everyone having harmless fun. It has nothing to do with suppressing ids, but understanding the right circumstances in which to express behavior of that nature, a bar, club, spring break cancun 2012, stumbling down the street drunk at 2:10am... those may be acceptable settings depending on the circumstances. There's an appropriate time and a place, this is neither.

[Sönam]

and one more about your sexist behavior ...

You did it once ... no reaction. You did it twice ... too much!

Hope it helps!
Sönam

[Tara]

Please note:

If you have a complaint about a post that's been made...

Use the Report Post function (exclamation mark in a square) and we will attend to your report as quickly as practicable, given our available staff. Please do not publicly quote and object to the content of a post, because this then embeds it within the flow of conversation and it becomes difficult for moderators to extract the offending material without disrupting the thread. Public complaints, regardless of how legitimate, tend to take threads off-topic and have a tendency to become a sideshow unto themselves. If you're not satisfied with the way we deal with your complaint, proceed to the next step.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2616

"Females who achieved rainbow body"

[deepbluehum]

Username said:

Conceptual vehicles' fruits do not really compare to the fruits of Dzogchen's 4 visions/thogal & if they claim so it is false.

I'm not saying that you are wrong. I merely would like to point out that Garchen Rinpoche, a man widely believed to be realized in Dzogchen and Mahamudra, told me the following: The Four Yogas of Mahamudra and the Four Visions of Thogal correspond one to one and both can result in Rainbow Body. He repeated that in his Ganges Mahamudra transmission that you can even achieve Rainbow Body if you want to. In my talk with him he said the different results of leaving relics etc., is to show disciples their commitments. He repeated several times that there is no difference in the results of the lineages. I'm still a bit baffled by his comments. But I'll take it at face value and with a grain of salt. There are many stories of Mahamudra mahasiddhas leaving no remains behind. There is a clear anecdotal history of rainbow bodies in 84 mahasiddha lineage. I also agree that Thogal is a very privileged and special method not like anything else, extremely fast and it is the effortless path beyond cause and effect. That's the most amazing thing to me. The fact that Ayu Khandro spent something like 50 years practicing yangti and didn't achieve rainbow is telling us something. High hopes at this point is not very important.

[username]

Hi deepbluehum,
Well to me it is extremely obvious the 4 stages of Semde & Essence Mahamudra are the same in essence (no pun intended) & although like all teachings, including longde & mengagde, they use concepts to communicate, their fruits after non-conceptual successful DI/Pointing-Out by themselves alone and/or preferably then completion of the paths plus constant non-dual integration is completely beyond concept in essence though having conceptual/causal manifestations/benefits to others too effortlessly relative to progress. By conceptual I was meaning lower vehicles like mahayana/yogacara/sutrayana etc not Dzogchen/Mahamudra. BTW there is a new trend in China to mix in Tibetan teachings with Mahayana & then claim there is no difference.

This is as a reaction to a growing Vajrayana following there. The result is many take Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen teachings & then claim they have no samaya etc which is dangerous & dismiss those vehicles basic tenets WRT to lower vehicles which is again a basic sad major downfall. If they do not agree with those vehicles they should not take them & then oppose their basic teachings in public. Further, every hodgepodge creation results in a unique self lama who actually has no precedence as each person using modularity creates their own unique thing without precedence in history or supervision. This is related to Chinese patriotic pride too however they are not common as most Mahayana folk are decent & do not mix & match & then fight what they took. They should note whatever criticisms they have of Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen is what Hinayana say about their Mahayana too as not being superior.That is what I was referring to, not Mahamudra whose fruit is non conceptual like Dzogchen. Mahamudra/Dzogchen fruits are not only beyond concepts & hence superior to Mahayana/Yogacara but also they go beyond 3 times into the fourth. Thirdly as Garab Dorje said to the great Yogacara Pandit from Nalanda, Manjushrimitra, Dzogchen is superior to Yogacara because it goes beyond cause & effect too.

Back to your point, maybe Garchen Rinpoche meant the dissolution of the body into it's physical essence as in atomic body disappearance of trekcho which should be achievable by mahamudra too. Or maybe if he meant jalu (surely did not mean phowa chenpo) then by the time you successfully complete the fourth stage of Mahamudra or semde, you will know where to go to & what to practice next or just possibly dissolve into the atomic physical essence & then space there and then. In either case the body can then disappear however in Jalus, only possible by thogal, lights or more precisely colored light rays are seen & are at work. Anyway he is a Dzogchen master too & IMO a siddha & can elaborate as he sees fit. I am sure there are many atomic disappearances in history but the female cases referred to here in this thread all mention the colored light rays which are quite striking if you see them around a person which means they were cases of jalus.

[Pero]

The fact that Ayu Khandro spent something like 50 years practicing yangti and didn't achieve rainbow is telling us something.

That you need to be very dedicated to achieve it and even then you might not make it?

[T. Chokyi]

The fact that Ayu Khandro spent something like 50 years practicing yangti and didn't achieve rainbow is telling us something. High hopes at this point is not very important.

This comment below isn't particularly for you, but after reading your comment it inspired me to share my own two cents so to speak...

I find from what I have read of her life it's an inspiration so in that way she was a living rainbow, I really don't feel that somehow if Ayu Khandro did not have complete transfer at the time of her passing, or somehow if she didn't close herself in a tent and leave just finger nails and hair behind, that she was not completely liberated, it also does not mean she didn't recognize the mother clear light and reach Buddhaood in one life time at the moment of death, we are taught many reach Buddhahood right at that moment, at the dawning of the clear light, recognizing the mother clear light as not separate from our own nature.

I did read where many Lamas and Khenpos of her day, the ones at the Sakyapa "College" as CHNN says, thought she was an wisdom emanation, this was part of her reputation during her lifetime, so I factor that in when I think of her, perhaps that meant she already achieved the three bodies of a Buddha before she was born here, and like Dudjom Rinpoche, she left behind a partial body for her disciples. Just saying we don't know everything about someones level of realization, surely she was very attained to have been the teacher of CHNN, and most of us would happily pass away sitting up in meditation, shrinking down for two weeks, flowers blooming, and having the presence to leave a statue for our precious student, also leaving a relic, a tiny body behind.

Ayu Khandro =