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Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Nyana » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:19 am


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Ben
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Ben » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:32 am

I started reading Kornfield's book, After the ecstacy, the laundry, about five years ago. I got half way through and just had to put it down.
Not my cup of tea. But I am sure Kornfield's book hits the spot for others. I'm not the intended audience.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:41 am

Hi All.

I also bought A Path With Heart when it came out. Don't recall why but i got about half way thru and never finished it, and haven't read anything by Kornfield since. Goldstein on the other hand i've found to be incredibly insightful and helpful. I read Insight Meditation: The Practice of Freedom very carefully and continue to go back to it. Every page in that book has something wise to say, imo. Goldstein's dhamma talk audios have also been extremely helpful. Practicing on my own without a personal teacher i'd go as far as to say he's been my primary dhamma guide these last 2 years. I like very much how Goldstein presents himself as a fellow dhamma student, moreso then as a teacher. I think that's part of what makes his "teaching" so accessible to others.

Dan, are there any passages from One Dharma that you found to be particularly insightful or interesting? I haven't read that.

This one section from a Goldstein dhamma talk was so helpful that i synced images to it and put it up on youtube. Interestingly, what he says here is quite similar to what you'd find in a book like Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki. Don't get caught up in deluded thoughts and desires, don't compare your self to others, follow the 8 fold path, keep practicing as best you can, focus on the present moment, etc...

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Monkey Mind
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Monkey Mind » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:12 am

Years and years ago, I purchased an audio tape by Jack Kornfield titled "Introduction To Buddhist Meditation". It included a handful of guided meditations, and some verbal teachings about the why's and how's of meditation as well as the history. First, my gratitude. This formed the basis of my meditation practice for many years. At the time I did not live near a monastery, temple, or meditation center, so Bhante Jack was was my best hope for guidance.

Now my criticisms, from the perspective of having more resources and learned some new "tricks". What Jack presented as "Mindfulness Meditation" was a form of cittanupassana, a variation of vipassana. So far, no foul, Anayo's book on the Sattipathana Sutta makes a case for this practice. But during the guided cittanupassana mediation, Jack references his teacher Ajahn Chah, so one is led to believe (or at least it is implied) that Ajahn Chah taught this type of mediation. But other disciples of Ajahn Chah seem to teach a different meditation (Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Amaro as two examples.) I know from biographical sources that Jack learned from meditation teachers in Burma and Sri Lanka, so I am left wondering, from which tradition does this meditation descend? If I wanted more information or guidance on this meditation, to whom do I turn? Or did he make this meditation up, based on a synthesis of other teachers? Now I know the title is "Introduction to Buddhist Meditation", but Jack does not offer any guidance about progress, stages of insight or jhana, or when I might be ready for "Advanced Meditation".

On that same tape, there was a Metta meditation. Jack introduces this with the words "In the ancient words of Buddha", but honestly it is a translation I have never heard before or since, the wording/ order/ objects of Metta are a bit peculiar. I have expended much effort trying to track down a source for this meditation, no luck.

His 2010 audiobook, "Guided Meditation", is more overtly eclecticic and/or his own creation instead of referencing meditation masters. It is also significantly less related to Buddhist meditation, IMHO.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

alan
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby alan » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:02 am

Hi Dan74. Thanks for your good question.
"One Dharma" has survived several purges of my bookshelf. Not because I agree with it--I don't--but just because I appreciate the fact that he tried his best.
It doesn't work because there are simply too many differences between the traditions to find a common ground.
Appreciate his passion, but I'm not convinced.
As for Kornfield, He seems to be focused upon those who come to the Dhamma from a psychological perspective. Doesn't do much for me.
Both these authors are popular influential. I'm not knocking them. They are nice places to start.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:34 am


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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:13 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

alan
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby alan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:06 am

It's just the same thing. He tried this and he tried that. But there is no conclusion, because the differences are too deep.

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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:12 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

alan
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby alan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:20 am

Don't discard that last paragraph. Picking and choosing creates problems.
We can decide that 'I like this about Zen", I like this about Tibetan" etc. What will be the result? I'd say a mushy collection that wants to be inclusive but is not incisive.

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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:32 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

alan
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby alan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:51 am

His conclusion is nice but facile, not a comprehensive view of the Dhamma.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:21 am


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kirk5a
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:09 pm

"A bhikkhu, Ananda, who is without clinging attains Nibbana."

"This is deathless, namely, the liberation of the mind through not clinging."
~MN 106

That is a comprehensive view of the goal. It is not a complete summary of how to accomplish it. Which is where all the variation of practices and traditions come in. I agree with Goldstein - finding the point of mutual agreement in ending clinging is the way to reconcile the schools.

Thanks Christopher for finding that interview, that's excellent.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Nyana
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:40 am


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christopher:::
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby christopher::: » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:25 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Nyana
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:45 am


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Ben
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Nyana
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:16 pm


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BrownRice (Element)
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Re: Goldstein, Kornfield and One Buddhism - what's missing?

Postby BrownRice (Element) » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:38 am

My opinion is Patrick's attack is unwarranted. It gives the impression of some kind of "attention seeking" & his dismissal of psychotherapy and assertion The Four Noble Truths are a 'cure-all' seems rather naive. The Buddhist scriptures do not show the Buddha instructing the Four Noble Truths to every person he instructed. In fact, the scriptures show, with some exceptions, the Buddha almost exclusively taught the Four Noble Truths to bhikkhus. How can the Four Noble Truths suit the needs of each human being where the very beginning of the 1st Sermon describes the 'Middle Way' as that which shuns sensuality and the household life?

Personally, I am struggling to actually comprehend what Patrick is attemting to say because his intellectualism is difficult to follow. But Patrick seems so far from the Dhamma, when he says: "But the path is not concerned with specific types of suffering, or specific types of experience, but simply with the fact that all suffering".

The Buddha gave 84,000 teachings. The Buddha gave teachings about how to manage money, how to manage all manner of relationships, etc. Of course there are kinds of dukkha (lit: difficulties) or problems that cannot be solved by the Four Noble Truths and, most specifically by the vipassana Patrick seems to be asserting as a "cure-all".

For some reason, I sense Bhikkhu Sujato is spreading his intellectual inclinations to his friends such as Patrick. The dogmatism, at least on my behalf, is dukkha (lit: difficult to bear, hard to endure).

:rolleye:


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