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Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka! - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
plwk
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby plwk » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:33 am

I fail to see how all this Dhammakaya stuff has its relevance with this Classical Theravada forum...can someone show me otherwise?
Would 'Modern Theravada' be more apt?

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gavesako
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby gavesako » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:18 pm

Well, the original topic (which is now probably exhausted) was about how classical Theravada texts get transmitted until the present, which is quite relevant.
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
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nyanasuci
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby nyanasuci » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:56 am

Dear Phra Sander,

Could you explain to us what is your understanding of connection between atta and nibbana? And what is Dhammakaya's grasp of it. Thank you.
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby M.G.A. » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:49 am

The customs and rituals of people with kilesas are numerous beyond description, unlike the ways of Dhamma which are always constant and unalterable.
- Ãcariya Maha Boowa Ñāṇasampanno

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nyanasuci
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby nyanasuci » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:12 am

Hello,

It is interesting: when there are critics against Dhammakaya, its members immediately responded, and offered some explanations. 'kentsiam' even sign-up to this forum just to give his/her defend, and 'Khemadhammo Bhikkhu' was able to give some more words on the topic. It is easy to defend and argue against in such worldly way what is the aim of Dhammakaya and what not. And, of course, Ven. Khemmadhammo thinks that Dhammakaya teaches according to Dhamma-Viniya, and therefore he speaks accordingly. But as 'my view' is usually taken as 'the right view' there can be many contradictory views and misunderstandings in our conversation. And this is reason why I questioned about the Venerables' views directly, hoping for Dhamma dialogue. I asked: “Could you explain to us what is your understanding of connection between atta and nibbana? And what is Dhammakaya's grasp of it?” But now none of the two members were able to give a any respond. That was expected.

Yes, M.G.A., it is unusual teaching. Simple bliss is nibbana. My goodness, I know many monks who got such attainments, but nobody would dared to think that this is nibbana! So, it seems that Dhammakaya lowered down the goal, so that their supporters can get 'attained' much faster and easier. Moreover, I cannot believe that 'going to' nibbana is once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It seems there is no cessation of bhava in their nibbana. Weird teachings... I just wonder if they are aware of the consequences of such actions.

I do not know the monks directly. There are some Dhammakaya monks who settled down in the city near our monastery. But they didn't come here to pay respect to our abbot. That is, according to Thai customs, quite disrespectful action. But perhaps dark-brown-robed monks are having also too dark-browned minds. Perhaps that is small matter, but it does indicate that there is a split of traditions. Some Thais told me that when they go to Dhammakaya monastery in UK and offered them some donation there is set up a live broadcast to Thailand, so that their relatives in Thailand can see how they are making donations! Better to go to Dhammakaya, especially if you like to be seen on TV!

I can somehow understand that Thai likes such simplified teachings which is according to their inspirations: building up merits (more your have richer you get), neat and shiny appearances, hierarchical system, praying to Buddhas and Arahats, etc, etc. But I do not understand why also Westerners are getting attracted to such movement.

More here http://www.rickross.com/reference/gener ... al644.html
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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Khemadhammo Bhikkhu
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby Khemadhammo Bhikkhu » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:21 am

He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!"
"I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."
(M ii.100)

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nyanasuci
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby nyanasuci » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:55 pm

Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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nyanasuci
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby nyanasuci » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:06 pm

Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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dharmapravicaya
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby dharmapravicaya » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:30 am

*If true* this would be rather shocking, and Ven.Anil should be congratulated for detecting what had been done. It should be easy though – many Thais would know ‘sabbe dhammā anattā’ by heart, and hence they would be able to notice the oddness of prayer books that change that. I think very strongly, though, that this piece of news should be double checked. It sounds very strange to me, in fact, that Ven.Anil would make a public appearance and make such declarations. I wasn’t able to find any reference to this matter on the Bangkok Post, hence, I remain a bit doubtful about the authenticity of the information.

About Oxford, let me notice that ‘critical scholarship’ is often not as ‘critical’ as it may appear. In my opinion, some scholars of Pāli coming from an Oxford background have a tendency to be a bit over self-confident about their ability to reconstruct the Buddhist past basing themselves on purely philological considerations. Their methods are often highly speculative and, to my mind at least, not as conclusive as they present them to be.

A good example of that is the work of Dr.Alexander Wynne, who has basically argued that the ‘earliest’ of the Buddha’s teachings entail that the aggregates are not the self, but they do not entail that the self doesn’t exist at all. In the articles wherein he forwards such a line of argument, he shows himself to be extremely erudite and careful in citing the original sources. However, it seems to me that the arguments themselves contain some possible fallacies – in particular the main argument is, I believe, circular.

It so happens that scholars with good erudition and with a prestigious institutional background feel rather confident in asserting conclusive statements about what the Buddha taught or thought basing themselves on a few sentences, whose chronology they claim to know better than anyone else. When we look at the arguments themselves, however, we can see that they are far, very far from conclusive.

Dr.Wynne’s positions would actually give credence to the Dhammakaya contentions and teachings. In themselves, I do not find their teachings so objectionable – well, at least not in the version taught in their source monastery, Wat Pak Nam. I do not find the teaching to be so easily comparable to the non-Buddhist teachings about ātman; my impression is that, in the end, it is not so easy to assess.

Changing the Suttapiṭaka intentionally seems an act of great demerit. However, please do consider that scholars too, often effectively do re-write the Tripiṭaka. While their claim is to reconstruct a philologically probable original, what often happens is that their reconstruction contains a great level of arbitrariness and depends on the perceptions and expectations they may have about both the content and the language of the texts. If you would like to know more about what I mean, please consider the very long lived polemics that has surrounded the nature and content of the Aṅgaññasutta, with scholars such as Gombrich and Gethin taking up very different positions. In my opinion, this is partly occasioned by (mis?)understanding Buddhism as a purely textual tradition, hence disregarding the continuous practice of interpreting and understanding the text that is still alive to this day: questioning traditional methods and positions is one thing – overlooking them, is another.

A further and clear example of ‘revisionism’ is the edition of Buddhist texts in Sanskrit. Many scholars have tended to ‘regularize’ the syntax and spelling of these texts, according to an idealized and probably rather artificial idea of how Sanskrit should look like. In recent years the attitude towards Buddhist texts in Sanskrit has changed, so that now editorial decisions of some earlier scholars are being questioned. And so forth. (Incidentally, a preconceived idea about the nature and regularity of Pāli may be one reason why the study of Pāli texts composed in South East Asia has been rather neglected for decades; this too, has created a rather artificial idea about ‘Theravāda’ Buddhism. I recommend Prof.Peter Skilling’s articles on that matter).

To me, it still seems unlikely that the Dhammakaya might do such a thing. Their strategy has been different – they have concentrated on the sections of the Pāli Canon that lend more credit to their views, and they have looked for texts from other Buddhist traditions that also may support their interpretation: all of this seems much more legitimate and acceptable. Of course it is a complex procedure, since the Tathāgatagarbha texts (which do use the term ātman) are difficult to interpret and often explain that ātman is nothing but a synonym of nairātmya (‘self’ is used to indicate the ‘selflessness’ is always the case).

In brief, I am arguing that although here a very straightforward dividing line has been set between the Dhammakaya methods of revising texts and the ‘critical scholar’ contentions about his/her own work of revision, I think that the difference is not so much. In both cases, a remarkable degree of arbitrariness and a priori assumptions is necessary. If we invest ‘critical scholars’ with such a higher degree of prestige and trust, we should really ask ourselves why – and we should really ask ourselves whether we are being critical at all.

I personally believe that institutional prestige should be thrown out of the window, especially when we are referring to modern universities, who have a very short history in terms of their tradition of Buddhist studies. Can any single western university claim to have fostered the study of Buddhism at a high level for anything more than a hundred years?

P.S.: If the main piece of information in the initial post were to be confirmed to be false, wouldn't it be desirable to create a new post with a corrective title? I believe it would be fair and polite towards the Dhammakaya.

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nyanasuci
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby nyanasuci » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:27 pm

Sadhu, dharmapravicaya!

:goodpost:
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:01 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Nibbida
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby Nibbida » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:48 pm


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gavesako
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby gavesako » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:37 am

I don't think they worry about the funding that much...
:roll:


Typical promotional letter sent out by the organization:

Dhammakaya image
Dear …., Firstly, I rejoice in your merit of good thinking. Building the Personal Dhammakaya Image will bring a lot of merit to you because it is the copying of the Lord Buddha’s body, Dhammakaya, and installing it at Maha Dhammakaya Cetiya. The inst...alled images will make the worshipers pure and bright. You can build the Personal Dhammakaya Image by donating 15,000 Baht per image and engrave your name or your beloved one’s name at the base of the image. The engraved name is 20 characters or less. For the name engraving, we allow only the person’s name and surname. We do not allow engraving the surname as the whole family, the company’s name or the pet’s name. What do you receive for this donation? 1. The Name Engraving at the base of the Personal Dhammakaya Image 2. The Rejoice Card for you to remind of this donation 3. The Master Nun Chand Khonnokyoong Coin You can donate to make this merit until April 22nd, 2011. Another big merit associating with the activities on April 22nd, 2011 is the Great Indefinite Alms Offering to the Monks from over 30,000 temples nationwide. You can donate with us, www.dmc.tv, via transferring your money to: The Saving Account of Siam Commercial Bank, Klongluang Branch Account Name: Phramaha Thossaporn Boonyarangkul Account No.: 314-456911-8 After finish transferring, please inform us by email to [email protected] or call 08-9685-0072 Special!! For you who make merit with www.dmc.tv Department If you donate for 2 images, you will receive an additional 1-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 3 images, you will receive an additional 5-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 5 images, you will receive an additional 9-inch Clear Dhammakaya Image. If you donate for 10 images, you will receive an additional 12-inch Golden Luang Phu Image. If you are not available to receive your small Buddha Image and other gifts, we will mail them to you. For more information, please call 08-9685-0072 or meet us at Post E6 in the International Dhammakaya Meditation Hall, Dhammakaya Temple. Overseas Money Transfer for Donation SWIFT CODE : SICOTHBK BANK NAME : SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BRANCH NAME : KLONGLUANG BANK ADDRESS : 93 MOO 8 KLONGLUANG PATHUMTHANI 12120 THAILAND ACC NAME : Phramaha Thossaporn Boonyarangkul ACC Type : Saving Rejoice in your merit,See more

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:25 am


Nyana
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby Nyana » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:41 am


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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby appicchato » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:22 am


Colin Donoghue
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Colin Donoghue » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:13 pm

"Surely anyone with more than a cursory understanding of the Budhism would know Anatta is one of the central tennets."

This statement, along with the majority of other comments here, shows that Mara's influence is as strong as ever (i.e. misguiding people with ideas that are false, irrational and unethical). The Buddha in fact never taught a doctrine of No-self, he taught that the Self is not the Five Aggregates, and in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra actually explained that enlightenment includes realization of ones eternal Buddha-Nature/Self. The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.

Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/

Peace,
Colin D. Donoghue

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:22 pm


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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:23 pm

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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tiltbillings
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:25 pm



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