Atomic/Rainbow Body

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

In terms of our usual dualistic interpretation of events, clarity of intention, of task, is vital for the development of mindfulness. Once my attention is on the task, I am able to see where I veer away from it. As soon as we choose a direction the possibility of deviance is there. As soon as we decide on a journey, obstacles will arise. This is not a punishment; it is the simple consequence of the complexity of the fields in which we live. Mindfulness, in bringing us in touch with this complexity is also calling us to develop the traditional virtues of courage, patience, endurance, fortitude, hope and faith. Of course being attentive to the actuality of our experience reveals the contours of this ever‐changing domain, and this greatly helps us to manifest a response that fits the emergent field. Then obstacles become not a curse or a challenge, but an inevitable part of our existence, part of our lives rather than a series of attacks on it.

To be mindful is to attend to the emergence or the presentation or the unveiling of your existence as it arises, with yourself as a flow of participation in a world that is not something apart from you. It cannot possibly be about mastery and control for you are not in charge. But if you are careful, if you attend to the emergence of situations, you will find a way to proceed. Scripts, rehearsed lines and practiced positions do not support free responsive participation for they clog up the space of experience. Not knowing is a more useful starting point as it encourages the reception of the field rather than projection onto it.

The most important thing is to be open‐hearted, to be connected, to be welcoming to the particularities of each moment as it occurs. This is the real heart of mindfulness; to be attentive to how things are, not how you want or believe them to be. That is to say: “I will respond to what is there. I am the attendant. I am present with the world as it shows itself. I am not the boss. I am not in charge. I am not trying to direct it like a theatre director. I am not wanting to set up
some mise‐en‐scène, some particular elaboration that will be comforting to me, for then all I will ever encounter are reflections of myself.”

James Low

[muni]

[



But he is not really talking about Dzogchen. What he is describing is from a common Mahāyan̄a point of view.

The Dzogchen approach to developing compassion is not to cultivate compassion through mindfulness and so on, observing how one feels, etc. The Dzogchen approach is based on discovering one's real nature. Once that is discovered, it is impossible not to have compassion for all sentient beings who are ignorant of their real nature -- that is "essencelove".

However, SSJ3 is correct: Dzogchen is not connected with so called New age love and light trips.

Rinpoche is talking from the essence but what is the approach, I don't know, cannot watch the youtube right now.

[Jeff]

...
The most important thing is to be open‐hearted, to be connected, to be welcoming to the particularities of each moment as it occurs. This is the real heart of mindfulness; to be attentive to how things are, not how you want or believe them to be.
...”

James Low

[magnagei]

The Dzogchen approach to developing compassion is not to cultivate compassion through mindfulness and so on, observing how one feels, etc. The Dzogchen approach is based on discovering one's real nature. Once that is discovered, it is impossible not to have compassion for all sentient beings who are ignorant of their real nature -- that is "essencelove".

I've been wondering about this alot lately. It seems to me many masters talk about the importance of devotion to the guru and compassion for sentient beings even in Dzogchen. This confuses me because what you stated seems very similar to things I have heard ChNN say, who I am a student of. While I certainly believe that ChNN is realized, I also have to believe that many of these other masters are as well and wonder why they say these things in a Dzogchen context. Am I confusing the deliberate attempt to force more compassion and devotion upon oneself with the naturally arising compassion and devotion that will arise by recognizing ones own nature?

In other words, should we not dwell on ideas like devotion and compassion and just continue in this way?

[muni]

Without devotion/faith, is said, nature remains hidden in ideation about.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

There is a famous Tibetan story of the Indian scholar and yogi Asanga. It's quite a long story, so I tell it in a condensed form. Asanga spent many years in caves, meditating. After he had spent about ten years in a cave, he was feeling he had no result at all; nothing good was happening for him, he thought, ‘This is a waste of time.’

So he is walking along, and he sees this man up on top of a hill with a small spoon, digging into the earth and putting the earth into a box. Asanga asks: ‘What are you doing?’ And the man answers: ‘Can you see down there that house that's in the shadow? I live in that house, and this hill blocks the sun. So I'm going to remove the hill so that I get some sun on my house.’ So Asanga thinks, ‘Goodness, if he can do that, I better go on back and meditate.’

So he goes back to his cave and has another ten years.

And again he goes out after ten years because he thinks, ‘No, I really should stop this – it's not my luck, not in this life.’ And walking along he sees a man with a block of iron who is rubbing it with a piece of cotton wool. Asanga asks the man: ‘What are you doing?’ And the man says, ‘You see my shirt? That's torn here. I'm making a needle, so I can repair it.’ And Asanga thinks, ‘Right, if these people can do that, I'm going back to the cave.’

And off he goes.

Another ten years in the cave, and he is really not getting anywhere. So he thinks, ‘I've had it. I'm finished.’ And as he walks along the road, he sees a dog that's sort of limping a little bit and looks as if in pain. Asanga goes up to the dog and looks, and the dog is whining and whimpering. Then Asanga sees that the animal has got a wound in its back, and in that wound there are lots of maggots. He thinks, ‘I've got to take these maggots out of this wound, because that's what's hurting this poor dog.’ So Asanga picks up a twig, a small piece of wood, and he goes to dig the maggots out. Then he thinks, ‘Oh, but if I do that, then maybe I'll hurt the maggots, and they also will suffer. I'll try to just pick them up with my fingers.’ But when he tries to do that, he gets frightened that he's going to squeeze the maggots. Now he is really confused and doesn't know what to do.

And then he thinks, ‘I know, if I put out my tongue, because my tongue is very soft maybe the maggot can come on my tongue.’ So he closes his eyes, puts out his tongue, and he just feels the maggot. And as he feels it, he opens his eyes, and there, in front of him, is Maitreya Buddha.

I think this story is very important, because in the first two parts of the story, when he goes out and sees the person digging on the hill and then the guy rubbing the iron, he has an inspiration which is very much about himself. ‘If they can work hard, I can work hard.’ So he is inspired to do something. But it's a self-reflexive inspiration, solipsistic. But in the third case, with the dog and the maggots, he is completely surrendering to the needs of the other. He is no longer trying to arrange things on his own terms. He makes a gesture out of himself, forgetting himself and putting the other first. This is perhaps the essence of compassion: that it privileges the other. It means that we are open to respond as the servant to the other's need.

[B]y developing wisdom which is the understanding of the openness and the luminous quality of being, the lack of substance in oneself and in the other, one can develop more ability to respond in an open way, without trying to control or manipulate or predict what the outcome will be. That is to say, one surrenders any attempt to establish a territory of control.

So the development of wisdom and compassion together is absolutely vital, and traditionally the image is given that they are like the two wings of a bird, and you have to have both in order to fly.

James Low

[username]

Wonderful Dzogchen text translations in his famous book, extract:
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=7636

[muni]

[
I've been wondering about this alot lately. It seems to me many masters talk about the importance of devotion to the guru and compassion for sentient beings even in Dzogchen. This confuses me because what you stated seems very similar to things I have heard ChNN say, who I am a student of. While I certainly believe that ChNN is realized, I also have to believe that many of these other masters are as well and wonder why they say these things in a Dzogchen context. Am I confusing the deliberate attempt to force more compassion and devotion upon oneself with the naturally arising compassion and devotion that will arise by recognizing ones own nature?

In other words, should we not dwell on ideas like devotion and compassion and just continue in this way?

You are so blessed, so blessed being able to recieve Dzogchen by Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche La by webcaste. Then there are others who cannot, cannot recieve any guidance/transmission at all.
They cannot be separate from practice, isn't?

[muni]

In terms of our usual dualistic interpretation of events, clarity of intention, of task, is vital for the development of mindfulness. Once my attention is on the task, I am able to see where I veer away from it. As soon as we choose a direction the possibility of deviance is there. As soon as we decide on a journey, obstacles will arise. This is not a punishment; it is the simple consequence of the complexity of the fields in which we live. Mindfulness, in bringing us in touch with this complexity is also calling us to develop the traditional virtues of courage, patience, endurance, fortitude, hope and faith. Of course being attentive to the actuality of our experience reveals the contours of this ever‐changing domain, and this greatly helps us to manifest a response that fits the emergent field. Then obstacles become not a curse or a challenge, but an inevitable part of our existence, part of our lives rather than a series of attacks on it.

To be mindful is to attend to the emergence or the presentation or the unveiling of your existence as it arises, with yourself as a flow of participation in a world that is not something apart from you. It cannot possibly be about mastery and control for you are not in charge. But if you are careful, if you attend to the emergence of situations, you will find a way to proceed. Scripts, rehearsed lines and practiced positions do not support free responsive participation for they clog up the space of experience. Not knowing is a more useful starting point as it encourages the reception of the field rather than projection onto it.

The most important thing is to be open‐hearted, to be connected, to be welcoming to the particularities of each moment as it occurs. This is the real heart of mindfulness; to be attentive to how things are, not how you want or believe them to be. That is to say: “I will respond to what is there. I am the attendant. I am present with the world as it shows itself. I am not the boss. I am not in charge. I am not trying to direct it like a theatre director. I am not wanting to set up
some mise‐en‐scène, some particular elaboration that will be comforting to me, for then all I will ever encounter are reflections of myself.”

James Low

Meanwhile, regarding previous posts, I leave this as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyuP2z72V0E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBvKnSW2 ... re=related

[muni]

In Dzogchen, is not the rainbow body something noticed/seen by another? One "reaches the point" where the radiating of light can be "seen". In Dzogchen, I had thought this was part of attaining Rigpa. (But, I apologize in advance, my specific knowledge of Dzogchen and terms is very limited.)

Oh, I read here now more posts in this tread.

Many masters point to students' nature without using specific Dzogchen terms. Many are compassionate using terma, pointing stories...
Devotion melt in compassion; truth arising from itself - nature recognizing itself. The radiance, a boundless joy-love, undescridable.
I don't mean translations about the general texts is not very respected or not necessary, it is.
Natures-emptiness' love is radiating. Then expressions are exhausted.
One realized master: "when the imagined self is dissolved (as never has been other than dream), it is like being in love with everyone and everything".

[Jeff]

In Dzogchen, is not the rainbow body something noticed/seen by another? One "reaches the point" where the radiating of light can be "seen". In Dzogchen, I had thought this was part of attaining Rigpa. (But, I apologize in advance, my specific knowledge of Dzogchen and terms is very limited.)

Oh, I read here now more posts in this tread.

Many masters point to students' nature without using specific Dzogchen terms. Many are compassionate using terma, pointing stories...
Devotion melt in compassion; truth arising from itself - nature recognizing itself. The radiance, a boundless joy-love, undescridable.
I don't mean translations about the general texts is not very respected or not necessary, it is.
Natures-emptiness' love is radiating. Then expressions are exhausted.
One realized master: "when the imagined self is dissolved (as never has been other than dream), it is like being in love with everyone and everything".

Thank you for your words. My understanding of the specific "terms" in Dzogchen has grown since this statement.

I should have said that the "growth and formation of the atomic body" could be felt/noticed by one who is advanced in tummo. To "see/percieve" the rainbow body, one must reside in Rigpa.

[muni]

[
My understanding of the specific "terms" in Dzogchen has grown since this statement.

To "see/percieve" the rainbow body, one must reside in Rigpa.

Oh, I see you mean not grown by analysis. It is said then in Rigpa all is clear and no extra clarity of analysing terms can make more clear, as being only adding fabrications in what already is perfectly clear.
Trying to explain merely words, therefore free thoughts must not be allowed to arise-subside in themselves and so the aware nature aware of itself is broken in distraction. I am demonstrating. lol.
To be able to analyse the moon reflection in the water, there must be one out of the union of emptiness clarity. That's me.

*Nobody home and the light is on*. Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

[Jeff]

[
My understanding of the specific "terms" in Dzogchen has grown since this statement.

To "see/percieve" the rainbow body, one must reside in Rigpa.

Oh, I see you mean not grown by analysis. It is said then in Rigpa all is clear and no extra clarity of analysing terms can make more clear, as being only adding fabrications in what already is perfectly clear.
Trying to explain merely words, therefore free thoughts must not be allowed to arise-subside in themselves and so the aware nature aware of itself is broken in distraction. I am demonstrating. lol.
To be able to analyse the moon reflection in the water, there must be one out of the union of emptiness clarity. That's me.

*Nobody home and the light is on*. Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

I definitely make no statement as to my state. But, also make no judgement of others.

Thoughts arise in all forms of communication, but the arising need not disrupt the clarity of the light.

[muni]

[
I definitely make no statement as to my state. But, also make no judgement of others.

Thoughts arise in all forms of communication, but the arising need not disrupt the clarity of the light.

Yes, I mean no statement, no judgement, no disruption when no grasping.

Thank you.

[Jeff]

... when no grasping.

[muni]

[ experience light/energy/vibrations or a sense of peace.

Thanks for the discussion.

Apologize, but this tread is throwing a light on my grasping, so tired, building a complex dzogchen pc by it. Not at all by your words, not the phenomena but by my own grasping mind.

An expression of Guru Rinpoches' transparant openess without boundaries, light vibration in which all is free........

Oh my God! I mean Emaho!

Discussion, I am not able too, oh yes there is no God, there is no this and that and blabla, and oh oh thanks so much for compassion.

[Jeff]

[ experience light/energy/vibrations or a sense of peace.

Thanks for the discussion.

Apologize, but this tread is throwing a light on my grasping, so tired, building a complex dzogchen pc by it. Not at all by your words, not the phenomena but by my own grasping mind.

An expression of Guru Rinpoches' transparant openess without boundaries, light vibration in which all is free........

Oh my God! I mean Emaho!

Discussion, I am not able too, oh yes there is no God, there is no this and that and blabla, and oh oh thanks so much for compassion.

[Yudron]

The Dzogchen approach to developing compassion is not to cultivate compassion through mindfulness and so on, observing how one feels, etc. The Dzogchen approach is based on discovering one's real nature. Once that is discovered, it is impossible not to have compassion for all sentient beings who are ignorant of their real nature -- that is "essencelove".

I've been wondering about this alot lately. It seems to me many masters talk about the importance of devotion to the guru and compassion for sentient beings even in Dzogchen. This confuses me because what you stated seems very similar to things I have heard ChNN say, who I am a student of. While I certainly believe that ChNN is realized, I also have to believe that many of these other masters are as well and wonder why they say these things in a Dzogchen context. Am I confusing the deliberate attempt to force more compassion and devotion upon oneself with the naturally arising compassion and devotion that will arise by recognizing ones own nature?

In other words, should we not dwell on ideas like devotion and compassion and just continue in this way?

It is a great question. Why did Longchenpa write long detailed instructions in the Sems nyid ngal gso and it's accompanying manual about how one must practice the Four Immeasurables--the main practice for cultivating immeasurable love compassion joy and equanimity--while I'm sure I can find a passage in Chö Ying Dzod that would lead one to think there is no need to do any such thing?

Longchenpa emphasizes in various words that these Mahayana practices help people to be able to calm down and gradually develop a taste for practice by seeing the results that practice brings, e.g. the benefits of relaxation, of loosening one's grip on attachment and aversion, of gaining a profound and calm understanding, and so on. In other words, one feels better as one ceases to believe one's BS storyline about the "us and them" world, and this creates stability in practice.

There are said to be highest capacity people, who naturally can sit down and practice Trek Chö successfully from the get go. I have not been one of those people. I was a completely inattentive, judgemental, arrogant, anxious, and opinionated person at the beginning. I could not sit down and meditate for five minutes. There was no room for Dzogchen there. It was been critical in my development as a lower capacity practitioner to gradually lay a foundation.

Now, I've heard it said that whenever one has an experience (nyam) of the open dimension of being, concurrent with that there is naturally arising compassion. Sadly, until realization (togpa) which makes a permanent shift, this compassion will not be stable.

[ngodrup]

Beautiful.

[heart]

Yes.