Females who achieved rainbow body

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby humanpreta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:51 am

Jyoti wrote:
Yudron wrote:My personal observation is that reading a bunch about Dzogchen when one has little foundation in practice, and little direct personal guidance from a master, creates more demons than Buddhas.


Yes, but this is for beginners in general. For those who properly develop the foundation of mahayana, and understand the two emptinesses, are equipped to study on their own.

[quote]

This is your invention. Of course anyone can do cursory study on their own--even those with no foundation may gain access to the texts. Where did you learn that a foundation in Mahayana would equip you to understand Dzogchen all by yourself? Btw, Dzogchen doesn't require any equipment. Dzogchen is connected to transmission. No transmission, no Dzogchen. Do yourself a favor and take this fact to heart--if you're sincere, find a good teacher. In the meantime, do everyone else a favor, and stop spewing your contrived fantasies about Dzogchen.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Yudron » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:55 am

Jyoti,

Guru Yoga is critical for successful Dzogchen practice.

It's not uncommon for Karma Kagyu practitioners to practice the ngondro, creation and completion stages of the Konchog Chidu, which contains Dzogchen. An earlier Karmapa was a student of the terton Jatshon Nyingpo as I recall. Kongtrul compiled the completion stage text, the Kham Sum Yong Drol.

Thank you for sharing about the Lama you were referring to by another name. This name rings a bell. What connection does he have to you personally, are his students (other than ChNN) still teaching?
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:08 am

mutsuk wrote:Sure I can appreciate their existence but they cannot compare with original tibetan texts. I have read several of Fahai Lama's (法海喇嘛) translations into Chinese of Tibetan texts such as the Yangti (仰的) teachings, etc. These texts are filled with Chan conceptions and ideas promoting the superiority of Chan teachings over Dzogchen, out of pathetic patriotic agendas. This simple fact disqualifies such "translations". So their existence might interest those who are unfortunately not able to access the original teachings.


Fahai Lama is student of Kunga Rinpoche, the former may explained the teaching within the context of ch'an, but I don't agree with his promoting the vajrayana as superior. This is a common misunderstanding among the chinese vajrayana teachers in which he is considered as one.

About my Kunga Rinpoche's collections, some of these books are as stated here:

椎擊三要訣勝法解 [Explanations on the supreme
method of striking the essence in three secret stanzas]
Tibetan title mKhas pa shr¥ rgyal po khyad chos ’grel pa
Author dPal sprul rin po che (O rgyan ’Jigs med chos kyi dbang po, Ch. Dashan jie-
gong dezhu dashi 大善解功德主大師, 1808-1887). Transmitted by Gangs dkar
rin po che (1893-1957). Translated by Ven. Mankong 釋滿空, and revised by
Zhang Miaoding 張妙定.
大圓滿最勝心中心仰兌科目 [Yang ti instructions on the quintessential teachings of the Great Perfection]
Tibetan title rDzogs chen yang ti nag po gser gyi ’bru gcig pa’i khrid yig mdor bsdus pa ’od gsal
lam ’jug Author Kong sprul Yon tan rgya mtsho (1813-1899). Transmitted by Gangs dkar rin
po che (1893-1957).
大圓滿心中心晝夜瑜伽 [Great Perfection yang ti yoga of day and night]
Author Transmitted by Gangs dkar rin po che (1893-1957).
This text is based on the oral transmissions by Gangs dkar rin po che on the ba-
of Kong sprul Yon tan rgya mtsho’s rDzogs chen yang ti nag po gser gyi ’bru gcig pa’i
rid yig mdor bsdus pa ’od gsal lam ’jug.
大圓滿心中心講義 [Commentary on the Great Perfection yang ti]
Tibetan title
Author Transmitted by Gangs dkar rin po che (1893-1957).

大圓滿法界心中心黑關引導法
[Instructions on the retreat in darkness of yang ti in the domain of the Great
Perfection] (Qiu Ling 邱陵 ed., Zangmi dayuanman xinsui tan’ao 藏密大圓滿心
髓探奧, Beijing: Meitan gongye, 1993): 27, 162-172.
This text is based on the oral explanations given by Gangs dkar rin po che on
the so-called Atiyoga (A ti yo ga), i.e., rDzogs chen, among which figure his te-
achings on the rDzogs chen yang ti nag po by Dung mtsho ras pa (Ch. Congzun luohai
叢尊螺海, 15th cent.).

You should just compare the 大圓滿最勝心中心引導略要 and its original by Kong-sprul (rDzogs chen yang ti nag po gser gyi ’bru gcig pa’i khrid yig mdor bsdus pa ’od gsal lam ’jug) to see the differences.


大圓滿最勝心中心引導略要
[Instructions on the quintessential teachings of the Great Perfection yang
ti] (Qiu Ling 邱陵 ed., Zangmi dayuanman xinsui tan’ao 藏密大圓滿心髓探奧,
Beijing: Meitan gongye, 1993): 23, 98-161.

This is the work of the person name Qiu Ling 邱陵, which is merely the selective compilation of Kunga Rinpoche's work. So it is meaningless to compared its content with Kong-sprul's version.

Some of the english translations I read actually do a great service to the chinese originals, mostly if sticking back to indian original expressions. But as far as Dzogchen is concerned, the chinese translations are often misleading.


Actually dzogchen texts being translated from Tibetan to chinese is much accurate than the english, one example is the Kun byed rgyal po by Mr. Wen-zen Chen who is a student of N.N., I have read both the english and chinese version, so I know what I'm talking about.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:17 am

SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Sherlock wrote:Yeah I suspected it was Kangkar Rinpoche, one of ChNN's main teachers, b7t you kept saying Kunga. :rolling:


She doesn't even understand the difference between Mahayana and Madhyamaka.


Jyoti wrote:indicate the maha parinirvana sutra is included as one the main sutras relied by the Madhyamaka tradition.



SSJ3Gogeta wrote:Are you confusing the word "Madhyamaka" with the word "Mahayana"?

That would explain a lot.



Jyoti wrote:No confusion here with the words.


I was referring to the chinese words that I cited for you. If you are confused, you should have asked for clarification instead of keeping in the heart for so long.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Sherlock » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:18 am

Jyoti wrote:Actually dzogchen texts being translated from Tibetan to chinese is much accurate than the english, one example is the Kun byed rgyal po by Mr. Wen-zen Chen who is a student of N.N., I have read both the english and chinese version, so I know what I'm talking about.

Jyoti


But you haven't read the Tibetan, how can you compare? Also, which English translation are you talking about, The Supreme Source or Jim Valby's?
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:22 am

humanpreta wrote:This is your invention. Of course anyone can do cursory study on their own--even those with no foundation may gain access to the texts. Where did you learn that a foundation in Mahayana would equip you to understand Dzogchen all by yourself?


I didn't say just the foundation of mahayana is sufficient, I did mentioned the need to understand the two emptinesses.

Btw, Dzogchen doesn't require any equipment. Dzogchen is connected to transmission. No transmission, no Dzogchen. Do yourself a favor and take this fact to heart--if you're sincere, find a good teacher. In the meantime, do everyone else a favor, and stop spewing your contrived fantasies about Dzogchen.


Transmission for what? You don't need it when you realize the two emptinesses.

Jyoti.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Josef » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:26 am

Jyoti wrote:
Transmission for what? You don't need it when you realize the two emptinesses.

Jyoti.

Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:28 am

Yudron wrote:Thank you for sharing about the Lama you were referring to by another name. This name rings a bell. What connection does he have to you personally, are his students (other than ChNN) still teaching?


You are welcome. I know of his other students who teach as vajrayana teachers but they have passed away.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:30 am

Josef wrote:Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


The emptiness is the nature state.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Yudron » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:31 am

Josef wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Transmission for what? You don't need it when you realize the two emptinesses.

Jyoti.

Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


If Dzogchen did not go beyond the realization of shunyata, there would be no reason for Dzogchen.

Emptiness does not equal the natural state.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Josef » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:35 am

Jyoti wrote:
Josef wrote:Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


The emptiness is the nature state.

Jyoti

Emptiness is a characteristic of the natural state, not the complete representation.

Essence, nature, and energy are the three wisdoms we have to be aware of.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Yudron » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:37 am

Yudron wrote:
Josef wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Transmission for what? You don't need it when you realize the two emptinesses.

Jyoti.

Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


If Dzogchen did not go beyond the realization of shunyata, there would be no reason for Dzogchen.

Emptiness does not equal the natural state.


Jyoti -- you need a Dzogchen master, someone who is actually on the third or fourth vision to teach you, not a bunch of books, or a bunch of parrots on an internet forum. You have waaaaay big misconceptions, even on an intellectual level. It's okay to admit you don't know everything and trust a genuine wisdom master.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby humanpreta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:27 am

Jyoti wrote:
Josef wrote:Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


The emptiness is the nature state.

Jyoti


Incorrect.

I repeat: Do yourself a favor and take this fact to heart--if you're sincere, find a good teacher. In the meantime, do everyone else a favor, and stop spewing your contrived fantasies about Dzogchen.

Why so much pride? Can you imagine that you're actually wrong? One day, a longtime from now, you'll thank all of us from a buddhafield....

Do you look like that image? If so, let's go on a date and I'll set you straight. XXX
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:38 am

mutsuk wrote:You don't seem to understand that for tantra and dzogchen a master is crucial.


This is true for beginners directly approaching the tantra and dzogchen, not the case of individual who has firmly established the understanding in the mahayana up to the recognition of the two emptinesses (non-conventional).

No they are pretty much different, in terms of "waves of blessings" and capacity to liberate others. This is beyond mere atmospheric signs and other similar things.


The rainbow bodies can't benefit beings as they are not visible to others, a reincarnation is needed to continue the act of benefiting others (as demonstrated throughout the history of rainbow bodies). Only the light body (or 'rainbow body of great transference') is visible to others and can benefit beings as long as necessary without needing to take reincarnation (e.g. the case of Vimalamitra at Wu Tai Shan).

Wrong, the body obtained through Trekcho practice is the rdul-lus (atomic body) and it is precisely characterized as not manifesting any light at all.


This is not different to the rainbow bodies, the rainbow only occurred during the absorption of the four elements, not after the shrinking of the body is complete.

The way this principle functions is quite clear to me. I am curious to read how you'd describe it.


Begin with the actual means and body, the means is the 7 consciousnesses, the body is the alayavijnana. The fruit or the four visions is due to the maturation of the seeds of bodhi within alayavijnana. Visions involved the eye consciousness, therefore the practice involve integrating the vision. By integrating, the seeds are perfumed, being perfumed, progressed of the vision occurred. These covered the major elements of togal. The way of abiding is trekcho, trekcho is not different than the abiding of ch'an, yogacara and/or mahamudra.

Then it simply means you don't understand the value of Thogel teachings and the superiority of its view, techniques and results. Yogacara cannot compare...


Yogacara has view too, it is termed the reason, yogacara also has techniques, it is termed the means. None of these is of any different. The only difference is the terminologies, if you based judgement on mere terminology, it is termed relying on the words and not the meaning.

Most certainly but if you think Neidan (內丹) has anything to do with Thogel you simply don't understand Thogel.


I mentioned, there is nothing special about togal, it is just the focus on the vision, but those in the Neidan who actually meditate, they naturally involved the integration of vision.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:47 am

Josef wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Josef wrote:Yes you do.
Dzogchen goes well beyond the realization of emptiness.
Emptiness alone is incomplete in the Dzogchen context.
Transmission of the actual natural state is absolutely essential as the starting point for actual Dzogchen.


The emptiness is the nature state.

Jyoti

Emptiness is a characteristic of the natural state, not the complete representation.

Essence, nature, and energy are the three wisdoms we have to be aware of.


Emptiness has no characteristic, thusness is indescribable, it is the end of words. Reason of thusness is the intellect (jnana)

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:06 am

humanpreta wrote:Why so much pride? Can you imagine that you're actually wrong? One day, a longtime from now, you'll thank all of us from a buddhafield....


Who is the one to accuse others not entitle to talk about dzogchen? Only the one with the pride of tradition can say that no? If I say you can't talk about mahayana practices unless you join as member of my tradition, then surely I had pride of the tradition.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Sönam » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:08 am

Jyoti, if you compare Dzogchen to Yogacara, you manifestely miss something ...Dzogchen is all but conceptual.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:17 am

Sherlock wrote:
Jyoti wrote:Actually dzogchen texts being translated from Tibetan to chinese is much accurate than the english, one example is the Kun byed rgyal po by Mr. Wen-zen Chen who is a student of N.N., I have read both the english and chinese version, so I know what I'm talking about.

Jyoti


But you haven't read the Tibetan, how can you compare? Also, which English translation are you talking about, The Supreme Source or Jim Valby's?


I had read the Supreme Source and the one by Neumaier-Dargyay. I'm comparing the ease of understanding and speed of reading of the two languages, as one familiar with chinese mahayana terminologies, the chinese translation that have similar terminologies provide immediate understanding without having to think twice about the meaning. Also the english sentence of a simple phase can get too long than the original, whereas the number of words of the chinese translation is always within a similar limit (e.g. 7 words in a row).
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:19 am

Sönam wrote:Jyoti, if you compare Dzogchen to Yogacara, you manifestely miss something ...Dzogchen is all but conceptual.

Sönam


This is common label impose onto all mahayana teaching by the nyingma. Yogacara is not conceptual. The dharma is not based on concepts.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Sherlock » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:20 am

Jyoti wrote:
mutsuk wrote:You don't seem to understand that for tantra and dzogchen a master is crucial.


This is true for beginners directly approaching the tantra and dzogchen, not the case of individual who has firmly established the understanding in the mahayana up to the recognition of the two emptinesses (non-conventional).


Who is the one to accuse others not entitle to talk about dzogchen? Only the one with the pride of tradition can say that no? If I say you can't talk about mahayana practices unless you join as member of my tradition, then surely I had pride of the tradition.


This is not just about tradition, direct introduction to your natural state by someone who has already had some realisation is the starting point for Dzogchen. First Statement of Garab Dorje. By all means, talk all you want, but please don't call what you're doing Dzogchen. You can use Dzogchen methods how you see fit, maybe you can even gain some realisation like this, but it is not Dzogchen.

Jyoti wrote:
No they are pretty much different, in terms of "waves of blessings" and capacity to liberate others. This is beyond mere atmospheric signs and other similar things.


The rainbow bodies can't benefit beings as they are not visible to others, a reincarnation is needed to continue the act of benefiting others (as demonstrated throughout the history of rainbow bodies). Only the light body (or 'rainbow body of great transference') is visible to others and can benefit beings as long as necessary without needing to take reincarnation (e.g. the case of Vimalamitra at Wu Tai Shan).


Vimalamitra is only visible to highly realised beings, same applies for others who manifested phowa chenpo, even so, they may give rise to emanations. Also, those who realised any form of rainbow body don't reincarnate any more, they emanate.

I had read the Supreme Source and the one by Neumaier-Dargyay. I'm comparing the ease of understanding and speed of reading of the two languages, as one familiar with chinese mahayana terminologies, the chinese translation that have similar terminologies provide immediate understanding without having to think twice about the meaning. Also the english sentence of a simple phase can get too long than the original, whereas the number of words of the chinese translation is always within a similar limit (e.g. 7 words in a row).


That just indicates you are more comfortable with Chinese instead of English, also Chinese is more concise syllable and word-wise compared to English. The Supreme Source is not the complete translation and Neumaier-Dargyay is quite flawed.
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