The Song of Vajra

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Norwegian » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:37 pm

My thoughts:

The video, I didn't like it. It's not my taste. Especially so considering what is being sung. But, if he got permission to do it, then who am I to argue?

I just won't watch it, but that's just me. I personally prefer the Song of Vajra as usually done in practice, and that's that.

If he has permission, then it's fine. And if so, if somebody encounters it, and connects with the teachings - whether this life or in a future life - then it is very beneficial.

So I hope that this is what will happen.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Sönam » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:42 pm

Norwegian wrote:If he has permission, then it's fine.


But that's the point, I doubt that ... so I will wait for the DC's answer.

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:42 pm

Sönam wrote:
Norwegian wrote:If he has permission, then it's fine.


But that's the point, I doubt that ... so I will wait for the DC's answer.

Sönam


I've heard quite a few SoV versions played/sung by various practitioners, some of them well-known DC figures, others not so. Some of those versions had a neat 1960s psychedelic vibe - and some were, well, quite poppy, I'm afraid; certainly not my cup of tea, the latter were, but why should I judge someone's tastes? Apparently all of them were perfectly legitimate - in other words ChNN was perfectly OK with them, or so I was told. So there seems to be nothing improbable in the guy's claim, as far as I can tell.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Sönam » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:02 pm

Just that ... we are told to be carefull, not to speak too much we are dzogchen practitioner, and so on. Then what could be the pov of a non buddhist about Dzogchen, viewing such a poppy/new-age/fashion/sexy and on and on way of being?

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:13 am

Sonam, I can't help but find it hilarious that you're all in a tizzy over this guy having some fun signing his good-natured songs about Dharma... Maybe it's just a generational thing. I never had you pegged for such a puritan, though! :rolling:

I of course mean that all in good fun. No disrespect intended. (I also realize now it's probably a really good thing that I never posted any of the juvenile jokes that popped into my head about the "shart ganapuja" we practiced on one of the most recent retreats! haha)
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Sönam » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:43 am

After a night ... and all your observations, I have to reconsidere my view upon. I just had that strong feeling that something went wrong there ... like somekind of dharma decline.
Who, non buddhist, after having listen to that video, could be interested to "SHOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN THE MEANING AND HISTORY OF THIS SONG, PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH THE DZOGCHEN MASTER CHÖGYAL NAMKHAI NORBU : http://www.dzogchen.it/
IF YOU ENJOYED THIS VIDEO, PLEASE CONSIDER DONATING TO A GOOD CAUSE : http://www.shangshunginstitute.org/inde ... e-donation" as it states in the announcement.
I will no more make a case out of it but ... I still have a very bad feeling about the whole business, where does it brings us? Certainly one of my limitations.

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Sönam » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:01 am

You practice GY with white Ah, even when the teacher is not there. You repeat it many time. If you do not discover your real nature then you sing Song of Vajra.

What my master explains has nothing to do with that entertainment ... nothing, SoV does not work like a magical powder. Also if I am the only one to think so!

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Sherlock » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:12 am

It is not entertainment but it doesn't mean it cannot be entertaining. Why are you judging and thinking so much about this? If you don't think he really received ChNN's approval then wait for the reply and tell him.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby pemachophel » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:59 pm

As Lama Surya said at the Rimay Monlam in Garrison, NY last Saga Dawa, the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma in the U.S. is in danger of being one-generation phenomenon, i.e., the Baby Boomers, (not mention lily white). When I travel around to various sanghas here in the U.S., that seems very true at many of them (happily not all). Lama Surya was asking what could be done about this and exhorting us all to be more pro-active in finding ways of making the Buddhadharma more attractive and accessible to younger generations.

Last weekend my wife and I attended a four-day teaching with Tsoknyi Rinpoche at Tara Mandala. It cost $1500 just for room and board for the two of us plus dana for Rinpoche, His translator, and Lama Tsultrim plus travel to and from. Even for my wife and I, it was expensive. How many young people could afford this? Not many I think. In fact, the only young people in attendance where either ordained (on scholarship) or volunteers working at Tara Mandala. Otherwise all Boomers.

So, personally, I think this video is good. To-drol, liberation by hearing. At the very least it makes a karmic connection. Is it to my personal taste? Maybe not, but that is irrelevant. I'll be gone soon and it's the younger singer's generation that needs to pick up the ball where we aging hippies set it down. If I remember correctly, my generation did some pretty iconoclastic sh_t in our day.

Just my two cents. :namaste:
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby byamspa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:17 pm

not everyone practicing vajrayana in the west is a white baby boomer.

we might not be so visible, but we're out there.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby username » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:19 pm

BTW the restricted book of ChNN for his students explaining "The Song of Vajra" explains the essence of the highest universal teaching of Dzogchen in a nutshell pithily yet precisely & completely & deserves many careful re-readings revealing more each time.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:11 pm

pemachophel wrote:As Lama Surya said at the Rimay Monlam in Garrison, NY last Saga Dawa, the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma in the U.S. is in danger of being one-generation phenomenon, i.e., the Baby Boomers, (not mention lily white). When I travel around to various sanghas here in the U.S., that seems very true at many of them (happily not all). Lama Surya was asking what could be done about this and exhorting us all to be more pro-active in finding ways of making the Buddhadharma more attractive and accessible to younger generations.

Last weekend my wife and I attended a four-day teaching with Tsoknyi Rinpoche at Tara Mandala. It cost $1500 just for room and board for the two of us plus dana for Rinpoche, His translator, and Lama Tsultrim plus travel to and from. Even for my wife and I, it was expensive. How many young people could afford this? Not many I think. In fact, the only young people in attendance where either ordained (on scholarship) or volunteers working at Tara Mandala. Otherwise all Boomers.

So, personally, I think this video is good. To-drol, liberation by hearing. At the very least it makes a karmic connection. Is it to my personal taste? Maybe not, but that is irrelevant. I'll be gone soon and it's the younger singer's generation that needs to pick up the ball where we aging hippies set it down. If I remember correctly, my generation did some pretty iconoclastic sh_t in our day.

Just my two cents. :namaste:

I haven't been around much but I wonder if this is not true for Europe too. At least for the more western part. Because it seems to me that more young people come from countries of eastern Europe than western.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:33 pm

pemachophel wrote: It cost $1500 just for room and board for the two of us plus dana for Rinpoche, His translator, and Lama Tsultrim plus travel to and from. Even for my wife and I, it was expensive. How many young people could afford this? Not many I think.

Exactly, that is why all lamas have to go to webcast, like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and others do.

The some free and some restricted webcast model is perfect. Everybody can tune in, those with a greater interest pay a yearly fee and have access to all of the teachings. This creates more members, and in the long run, more proceeds. Then, the price of the other "service offered", if you will - attending live teachings - can be reduced.

Young people are prohibited by the costs as it stands now. We need a way for them to receive some teachings free of cost.

We need wider audiences in general. The non-webcasting way of teaching is outdated and will fail completely for anyone who tries it.

People should try to get with the times.

If I am a young individual, new to Buddhism, and I want to go beyond the one or two books I have read on it (most youngsters won't read more than that) and connect with a teacher in real life and receive some actual instruction beyond a ten minute youtube, I generally don't have $500 or more US to spend. I will look for your website and if you happen to offer free webcasts... you may find yourself with a new paying student before long.

In the future, live attendance numbers will decrease and web attenders will increase. People will actually receive more teachings because of this, and getting to attend live will be even more of a privelage. The amount of students teachers have will increase.

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:54 pm

Lets get real..its not just the younger people that cant afford retreats like that...theres a lot of us hurting out there. If it werent for Rinpoches webcasts I would be totally screwed.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:01 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Lets get real..its not just the younger people that cant afford retreats like that...theres a lot of us hurting out there. If it werent for Rinpoches webcasts I would be totally screwed.

Right on.

What Rinpoche made happen. . .

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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:05 pm

Thankfully not my impression in the UK - plenty of young and enthusiastic practitioners.

Financial barriers are there for all of us. Unemployment is high, debt is high, pensions have been raided - everyone is feeling the pinch.

How fortunate to have a teacher who selflessly gives his time travelling the world to teach and gives free access via the webcasts and even support by email.

Sometimes the older Baby Boomers may need to explain how rare and precious it is to receive such teachings as SOV, as they can remember the days when the media available for teaching were radio, print and the odd film - or a journey which was long and often hazardous.

Now we have at our fingertips access to a teacher, to an ebook and mp3 files - in an hour we can receive what may have taken months in the past.

As for taking the SOV and creating a different presentation- not for me. We have a choice - stick with the version our Guru teaches, embrace the adaptations, or possibly embrace both. However, what popped straight into my mind was that if ChNNR saw a change as an improvement, he would teach it in a new form.

Whether or not ChNNR is content for people to shape the SOV in ways they may find more meaningful, he still teaches it to us in a particular form - I'm inclined to think that is important and unless he changes that form I'll follow it as he performs it, as best I can.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:12 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:Whether or not ChNNR is content for people to shape the SOV in ways they may find more meaningful, he still teaches it to us in a particular form - I'm inclined to think that is important and unless he changes that form I'll follow it as he performs it, as best I can.

A guy made a video. He was happy. It was entertaining. But we are all going to sing it the way Rinpoche does. Just enjoy the vid, and don't give it a second thought. :smile:
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:12 pm

pemachophel wrote:As Lama Surya said at the Rimay Monlam in Garrison, NY last Saga Dawa, the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma in the U.S. is in danger of being one-generation phenomenon, i.e., the Baby Boomers, (not mention lily white). When I travel around to various sanghas here in the U.S., that seems very true at many of them (happily not all). Lama Surya was asking what could be done about this and exhorting us all to be more pro-active in finding ways of making the Buddhadharma more attractive and accessible to younger generations.


I understand your point, but being 'pro-active in finding ways of making the Buddhadharma more attractive and accessible' may prove a very dangerous route. Obviously, it all depends on how one construes 'attractiveness' and 'accessibility' - i.e., 'attractive' might mean frank and direct, and 'accessible' might translate as 'using the vernacular'. But the idiom casts a shadow of late, MTV-style capitalism. Sonam will not approve ;-)

pemachophel wrote:Last weekend my wife and I attended a four-day teaching with Tsoknyi Rinpoche at Tara Mandala. It cost $1500 just for room and board for the two of us plus dana for Rinpoche, His translator, and Lama Tsultrim plus travel to and from.


:jawdrop:

Well I never...
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:18 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:As for taking the SOV and creating a different presentation- not for me. We have a choice - stick with the version our Guru teaches, embrace the adaptations, or possibly embrace both. However, what popped straight into my mind was that if ChNNR saw a change as an improvement, he would teach it in a new form.

Whether or not ChNNR is content for people to shape the SOV in ways they may find more meaningful, he still teaches it to us in a particular form - I'm inclined to think that is important and unless he changes that form I'll follow it as he performs it, as best I can.

The SoV was not always done in the way we do it now and it doesn't mean the way it was done before was wrong.
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Re: The Song of Vajra

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:27 pm

Pero wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:As for taking the SOV and creating a different presentation- not for me. We have a choice - stick with the version our Guru teaches, embrace the adaptations, or possibly embrace both. However, what popped straight into my mind was that if ChNNR saw a change as an improvement, he would teach it in a new form.

Whether or not ChNNR is content for people to shape the SOV in ways they may find more meaningful, he still teaches it to us in a particular form - I'm inclined to think that is important and unless he changes that form I'll follow it as he performs it, as best I can.

The SoV was not always done in the way we do it now and it doesn't mean the way it was done before was wrong.


I didn't say it was wrong, but my preference is to use the version ChNNR teaches. if he changes it, so shall I.

I see it as a transmission where sound is important, if not part of the essence.

If others want to embrace other earlier or later versions that's fine, but not for me.
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