Unorthodox Ideas

[viniketa]

Anyway, believe what you want but realizing the nature of the mind is NOT the same thing as first bhumi, omniscient Buddhahood or even realizing emptiness.

This is true of every Buddhist system.

Typically, I don't take 'belief' and 'want' as the basis for much of anything.

So, you are criticizing #5, the conclusion, on the basis of... again, that it is not the 'standard' way of describing 'realization'? Bhumis and hoods aside, can one say that one has realized the nature of mind if one does not realize [an experiential understanding of] emptiness, or vice-versa?

[SSJ3Gogeta]

Realizing emptiness is a much higher realization than realizing the nature of the mind.

For all practical purposes you need the methods of Vajrayana for this.

[viniketa]

Realizing emptiness is a much higher realization than realizing the nature of the mind.

For all practical purposes you need the methods of Vajrayana for this.

Thank you, this is an actual criticism. However, "for all practical purposes" is not the same as "it is impossible" to realize nature of emptiness (I assume, rather than the 'lower' attainment of 'nature of mind') without practicing Vajrayana.

Further, is one 'lower' or 'higher' than the other due only to the order of the defined steps of (orthodox) practice in Vajrayana or is it an impossibility to realize emptiness before realizing nature of mind?

Also, is the 'order' of the practices 'fixed' across all Vajrayana, or does it vary?

Most of the explanations I've seen boil down to Vajrayana (in general) and Dzogchen (in particular) are more time-efficient ways for realizing nature of mind, but not necessarily more effective (attainment is attainment).

[SSJ3Gogeta]

However, "for all practical purposes" is not the same as "it is impossible" to realize nature of emptiness (I assume, rather than the 'lower' attainment of 'nature of mind') without practicing Vajrayana.

Its essentially impossible without Vajrayana methods.

[viniketa]

Its essentially impossible without Vajrayana methods.

Again, "essentially" is an equivocation. Either it is, or it is not.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

Most of the explanations I've seen boil down to Vajrayana (in general) and Dzogchen (in particular) are more time-efficient ways for realizing nature of mind, but not necessarily more effective (attainment is attainment).

How do you figure?

Realizing nature of mind is just step one in Vajrayana.

Then there are all sorts of things like Completion Stage.

[viniketa]

Most of the explanations I've seen boil down to Vajrayana (in general) and Dzogchen (in particular) are more time-efficient ways for realizing nature of mind, but not necessarily more effective (attainment is attainment).

How do you figure?

Realizing nature of mind is just step one in Vajrayana.

Then there are all sorts of things like Completion Stage.

My apologies, I meant to say 'nature of emptiness'...

[SSJ3Gogeta]

you lost me

[viniketa]

you lost me

I will restate:

Most of the explanations I've seen boil down to Vajrayana (in general) and Dzogchen (in particular) are more time-efficient ways for realizing nature of emptiness, but not necessarily more effective (attainment is attainment).

[SSJ3Gogeta]

Most of the explanations I've seen boil down to Vajrayana (in general) and Dzogchen (in particular) are more time-efficient ways for realizing nature of emptiness, but not necessarily more effective (attainment is attainment).

This is mostly true, although Dzogchen is about the basis (gzhi), and realizing emptiness merely occurs on the way.

[viniketa]

This is mostly true, although Dzogchen has some unique aspects above realizing emptiness.

Yes, of course, methods are different. But once realized (even if it should take several lifetimes without Vajrayana), the attainment is the same.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

This is mostly true, although Dzogchen has some unique aspects above realizing emptiness.

Yes, of course, methods are different. But once realized (even if it should take several lifetimes without Vajrayana), the attainment is the same.

Dzogchen's attainment is actually different. Its actually a special type of Buddhahood called "Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis".

There is even a distinction between Vajrayana Buddhahood and sutrayana Buddhahood.

[viniketa]

... above realizing emptiness.

Ah, I see, now. But are these 'above' or simply 'in addition to'? I realize some siddhi are considered 'more powerful' than others, but these do not change the nature of emptiness.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

... above realizing emptiness.

Ah, I see, now. But are these 'above' or simply 'in addition to'? I realize some siddhi are considered 'more powerful' than others, but these do not change the nature of emptiness.

Realizing emptiness occurs on the way to realizing the basis (gzhi).

Dzogchen is mostly about the latter.

[viniketa]

Dzogchen's attainment is actually different. Its actually a special type of Buddhahood called "Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis".

There is even a distinction between Vajrayana Buddhahood and sutrayana Buddhahood.

We were leaving hoods aside for the moment... but, since you brought that up, by what criteria does one qualify as "superior" to the other?

[Jnana]

Realizing emptiness is a much higher realization than realizing the nature of the mind.

For all practical purposes you need the methods of Vajrayana for this.

Its essentially impossible without Vajrayana methods.

I suggest you sharpen your knowledge of the Buddhadharma. These are the kinds of statements that make the vajrayāna look ridiculous in the eyes of many.

[SSJ3Gogeta]

I suggest you sharpen your knowledge of the Buddhadharma. These are the kinds of statements that make the vajrayāna look ridiculous in the eyes of many.

This is pretty ironic coming from you.

[Andrew108]

Both the subjective and objective perception are just the two-fold manifestation of consciousness. The subjective perception is the basis for atman, whereas the objective perception is the basis for all phenomena (dharmas), both the atman and dharmas does not exist in reality, only the thusness of consciousness is true. The subjective field of perception corresponds to the inner six sensory entrances, whereas the objective field of perception corresponds to the outer six sensory entrances, therefore the twelve entrances are none other than consciousness. The emptiness conventionally speaking is the consciousness, ultimately speaking it is the thusness. So the twelve entrances are none other than thusness, subject and object have no difference. This is the meaning of the terms as stated above: ' realising the emptiness of mind is realising the emptiness of all things', 'awareness without abiding on any referential point', 'whether one sees the emptiness of self or any phenomenon, the result is the same wisdom.'

Jyoti

Are you being serious with all this? Sounds like you are a car mechanic. Attach the manifold to the intake and release the piston casing and free the carburettor casing but make sure you don't change the cam belt settings and you should be good to go. I mean why not just say consciousness is awareness and awareness can't be found? Isn't that what you are implying?
By the way thanks to Astus for an interesting post. Lots of nice ideas expressed therein.

[Jyoti]

I mean why not just say consciousness is awareness and awareness can't be found? Isn't that what you are implying?
By the way thanks to Astus for an interesting post. Lots of nice ideas expressed therein.

The choice for consciousness over awareness is due to the need to follow standard dharma terminology. The word consciousness (vijnana) is not the equavalent of awareness which can be subject to any interpretation as it does not have a buddhist-sanskrit origin. The poster I'm replying to has a problem that is based on the subject object aspect of consciousness, that is what I'm trying to explain in relation to the topic.

Jyoti

[Jyoti]

:rolling:

Anyway, believe what you want but realizing the nature of the mind is NOT the same thing as first bhumi, omniscient Buddhahood or even realizing emptiness.

This is true of every Buddhist system.

I had to address this since you bring up the 'first bhumi' twice in this thread. The first bhumi is attained only by realizing the two emptinesses, viz. one cannot have any progress in the bhumis without having realized the two emptinesses. I had explained the two emptinesses in another post in this thread.

Jyoti