Females who achieved rainbow body

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Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Sherlock » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:18 am

Can anyone tell me about any female practitioners who achieved rainbow body? I always thought Ayu Khandro did but apparently she didn't. I find that a bit disappointing IMO; she spent years in dark retreat and still didn't get rainbow body. Was it because of chudlen?
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby arsent » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:14 pm

Sherlock wrote:Can anyone tell me about any female practitioners who achieved rainbow body? I always thought Ayu Khandro did but apparently she didn't. I find that a bit disappointing IMO; she spent years in dark retreat and still didn't get rainbow body. Was it because of chudlen?


It looks like she did!

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Ayu_Khandro

Ayu Khandro, formally Ayu Khandro Dorje Paldrön (1838-1953) was a teacher of Dzogchen and Tantric Buddhism in East Tibet. She was a student of both Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Nyala Pema Dündul.
By many Ayu Khandro was thought to be incarnation of Vajrayogini. She spent many dozen years in dark retreat and also practiced and taught a tantric long-life practice.
It is said that at least once Ayu Khandro had a spontaneous involuntary experience of long-distance teleportation. After the event she could not replicate the achievement at will and was forced to travel home for many days.
In 1953 Ayu Khandro attained rainbow body.
One of her students is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.
Incarnations

In 2004 His Eminence Khempo Yurmed Tinly Rinpoche (Abbot of both Gantay Monastery and Zilnon Kagyeling Monastery-- as well as the Dalai Lama's choice to represent the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism at the United Nations Millennium World Peace Summit) recognized one of his students as the reincarnation of Ayu Khandro. She was born in 1963, and lives in the United States.

:bow: :bow: :bow:
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:49 pm

arsent wrote:
It looks like she did!



Nope:

http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biograph ... dron/13139

And:

"Near the twenty-fifth, without any sign of illness, we found that she had left her body at the time she would normally be finishing her meditation session. She remained in meditation posture for two weeks and when she had finished her tugdam, her body had become very small. We put some ornaments on it and many many people came to witness it.

"In the second month on the tenth day, we cremated her. There were many interesting signs at the time of her death. There was a sudden thaw and everything burst into bloom. It was the middle of winter. There were many ringsel and, as she had instructed, all this and her clothes were put into the stupa that she had prepared at the Sakya monastery."

I, Namkhai Norbu, was given the little statue of Jamyang Khentse Wongpo and a volume of the Simhamukha Gongter and her writings and advice and spiritual songs. Among her disciples there were few rich and important people; her disciples were yogis and yoginis and practitioners from all over Tibet. There are many tales told about her, but I have written only what she herself told me. This is just a little biography of A-Yu Khadro written for her disciples and those who are interested.


Since ChNN personally was present at her cremation, I don't think we can consider that she attained rainbow body.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:her body had become very small

Since ChNN personally was present at her cremation, I don't think we can consider that she attained rainbow body.

M



You must have mistaken the rainbow body with the light body, the body shrinking is considered sign of rainbow body. Only complete transformation without leaving anything behind, including nails, is considered the light body.

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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Sherlock » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:50 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:her body had become very small

Since ChNN personally was present at her cremation, I don't think we can consider that she attained rainbow body.

M



You must have mistaken the rainbow body with the light body, the body shrinking is considered sign of rainbow body. Only complete transformation without leaving anything behind, including nails, is considered the light body.

Jyoti


Actually Malcolm knows this very well -- "rainbow body" in common parlance is the atomic body (dissolution into subtle particles) and the result of trekchod. a'od lus (light body) or even phowa chenpo is the real rainbow body with the body dissolving into the five lights.

As stated before, there are two main forms of dissolution of the mortal body: the attainment of the dissolution of the atoms or the most subtle particles (total dissolution) of the mortal body, popularly known as the attainment of Rainbow Body ('ja lus), through training in Threkchod (Cutting Through), and the attainment of the Light Body (a'od lus) or the Great Transformation ('pho ba chen po) through training in Thodgal (Direct Approach).


Note the bold portion.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:37 pm

Sherlock wrote:Actually Malcolm knows this very well -- "rainbow body" in common parlance is the atomic body (dissolution into subtle particles) and the result of trekchod. a'od lus (light body) or even phowa chenpo is the real rainbow body with the body dissolving into the five lights.

As stated before, there are two main forms of dissolution of the mortal body: the attainment of the dissolution of the atoms or the most subtle particles (total dissolution) of the mortal body, popularly known as the attainment of Rainbow Body ('ja lus), through training in Threkchod (Cutting Through), and the attainment of the Light Body (a'od lus) or the Great Transformation ('pho ba chen po) through training in Thodgal (Direct Approach).


Note the bold portion.


Yes, but the point still remains that the mere shrinking of the body is the sign of rainbow body. And for the body to completely disappeared (without nails) is of the light body.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:42 pm

Such obsession with the body at the time of death. Why on earth does it matter? Rainbow body is the fixation that ruins many a Dzogchen practitioner.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby SSJ3Gogeta » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Such obsession with the body at the time of death. Why on earth does it matter? Rainbow body is the fixation that ruins many a Dzogchen practitioner.


In depends on what you mean by "rainbow body", which as I understand is merely a prevalent English phrase.

Malcolm said that one can complete Dzogchen without anything special happening to the body.

So what do we mean by "rainbow body" in this thread?

Total realization or body phenomena?
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:56 pm

Total realization or body shrinking? Are these the choices? How about dieing where nothing out of the ordinary happens?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby SSJ3Gogeta » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:58 pm

whatever.
Last edited by SSJ3Gogeta on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:00 pm

Ordinary dieing is the best type of dieing from the Dzogchen point of view.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby magnagei » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:11 pm

Is ordinary dying when the son wisdom recognizes the mother wisdom?
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:15 pm

Ordinary dieing is when you die.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:19 pm

magnagei wrote:Is ordinary dying when the son wisdom recognizes the mother wisdom?


Ordinary death just means a natural death, like most every being... but supposedly at the moment of death it's easier for the son to recognize the mother, so for those who had difficulty doing so in life, that moment is a excellent opportunity for this to occur.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Stewart » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:26 pm

18 August 2012 Andrew108 said:

So I'm signing off from this forum because I'm not bothered with all the debates or being right or wrong. None of the debates or answers change or do up experience one bit. Making mistakes can't happen when you are just interested to know what experience is. So I don't care for anything beyond that.
Thanks for all of your replies in the past and thanks to all the moderators who have a thankless task. Best wishes to all on the path. It's time I stopped posting here because experience itself is wordless. Thanks.


So what happened?
s.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:29 pm

Stewart wrote:18 August 2012 Andrew108 said:

So I'm signing off from this forum because I'm not bothered with all the debates or being right or wrong. None of the debates or answers change or do up experience one bit. Making mistakes can't happen when you are just interested to know what experience is. So I don't care for anything beyond that.
Thanks for all of your replies in the past and thanks to all the moderators who have a thankless task. Best wishes to all on the path. It's time I stopped posting here because experience itself is wordless. Thanks.


So what happened?

I took a break and now I'm back.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby mutsuk » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:30 pm

Jyoti wrote:Yes, but the point still remains that the mere shrinking of the body is the sign of rainbow body. And for the body to completely disappeared (without nails) is of the light body.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body


This rigpawiki article is bullsh*t and misleading. If you want good info on the subject read that :
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _15_13.pdf

Also note that what you say contradicts what Longchenpa says in his Theg-mchog-mdzod. Furthermore, for the correct classification of Rainbow Bodies (as Light Bodies distinct from Atom Body) you should read Dudjom Lingpa.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby arsent » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:42 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Jyoti wrote:Yes, but the point still remains that the mere shrinking of the body is the sign of rainbow body. And for the body to completely disappeared (without nails) is of the light body.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body


This rigpawiki article is bullsh*t and misleading. If you want good info on the subject read that :
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _15_13.pdf

Also note that what you say contradicts what Longchenpa says in his Theg-mchog-mdzod. Furthermore, for the correct classification of Rainbow Bodies (as Light Bodies distinct from Atom Body) you should read Dudjom Lingpa.


Dear mutsuk!

Sorry for my breaking into the conversation, but as soon as I and may be other forum members didn't read the Dujom Lingpa's works related to the subj and also can't read French, can you please share the the name of the text of Dujom Lingpa you refer in your post? Sure, the best way is to provide link to it. And, may be you know where to find the article referenced in your link, but in English?

Thanks.
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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Jyoti » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:19 am

mutsuk wrote:This rigpawiki article is bullsh*t and misleading. If you want good info on the subject read that :
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _15_13.pdf


If you don't care to translate, then the point is not make. The reason I point to the rigpawiki article is because it agreed with all that I have studied about the rainbow body and light body. Also I don't relied exclusively on english source for these information.

Also note that what you say contradicts what Longchenpa says in his Theg-mchog-mdzod. Furthermore, for the correct classification of Rainbow Bodies (as Light Bodies distinct from Atom Body) you should read Dudjom Lingpa.


This is not contradicting the rigpawiki article. I have read all of Dudjom Lingpa's specific collections on Togal and rainbow body from chinese translations.

For english source, page 204 of the book: Bonpo Dzogchen Teaching has the descriptions for rainbow body.


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Re: Females who achieved rainbow body

Postby Yudron » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:41 am

I heard the following story about Sera Khandro's death from Tulku Sangngag Rinpoche (this is not mentioned in other versions.)

From my notes:
Later she died and attained rainbow body. She left instructions that her door should be kept closed for 7 days. But, after 4-5 days they could see through the planks of the walls that the house was filled with rainbows. Folks started peeking. They could see that there were rainbows swirling and hovering in her clothing. Some people were scared. There were letters made out of light that spelled HA RI NI SA. The students wanted to break in early to get relics. At day 5 they could see only rainbows and fire shimmering at first, They thrust their hands onto the light to try to get remains before she completely dissolved. Only remains the size of a torma were left.
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