Consciousness as just a sticker.

[DarwidHalim]

The ability not to know the different between emptiness and nothingness is the major disaster in reading heart sutra.

[viniketa]

The ability not to know the different between emptiness and nothingness is the major disaster in reading heart sutra.

Where in the Sutra is 'nothingness' addressed?

[DarwidHalim]

You can't find the word nothingness in heart sutra, because that is not the meaning of emptiness.

[Andrew108]

All this talk of emptiness is a sickness. Just smell the roses and enjoy. The fact of the experience of enjoying tells you all you need to know about emptiness and awareness. I'd rather be an ignorant chef who makes great food then be a madhyamaka expert.

[viniketa]

... that is not the meaning of emptiness.

Yes. we've already established that...

All this talk of emptiness is a sickness. Just smell the roses and enjoy.

Can't both be done? The 'talk' is just that.

[DarwidHalim]

This sky is empty of clouds, but this sky is not nothing of clouds.



This sky is empty of clouds, and this sky is also nothing of clouds.

[viniketa]

Very nice illustrations!

Is there a differnce between 'consciousness' and 'consciousness of consciousness'?

[DarwidHalim]

It is difficult to explain that using words, because the best way to explain the difference between emptiness and nothingness is using photo.

Consciousness and consciousness of consciousness.

From the perspective of treating consciousness as a substance, then the consciousness of consciousness is the double consciousness. It is the consciousness that overlay the consciousness.

[viniketa]

It is the consciousness that overlay the consciousness.

Thank you.

Are BOTH consciousnesses empty?

[DarwidHalim]

Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

Emptiness is also just label.

That is why it is also rejected.

Emptiness of emptiness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

[viniketa]

Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

O.K. It seems you and Joyti have a fundamental disagreement about what is 'consciousness' and, therefore, what is 'Buddha nature'... but NOT about what is 'emptiness'.

Thank you, DarwidHalim! I wanted to check my own understanding of both the positions.

[oushi]

Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

Emptiness is also just label.

That is why it is also rejected.

Emptiness of emptiness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

I wish you good luck in seeing you true nature by rejecting. You will need it.

[Jyoti]

Both are empty.
When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.
Emptiness is also just label.
That is why it is also rejected.
Emptiness of emptiness.
What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".
And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

If you think you need to fulfill all of the above in order for buddha nature to shine without impediments, than you have not realized the nature. Why?

The nature is beyond causes, but in the above you have stated several causes, e.g. rejecting certain labels, accepting several concept such as 'Emptiness of emptiness', "nakedness" and "bareness".

Jyoti

[DarwidHalim]

So the word "reject" there giving the meaning like throwing someone out of the window, isn't it?

Unfortunately, that is not what I mean.

When you can see the nonsense of all concepts - the nonsense of consciousness, the nonsense of emptiness, the nonsense of nothingness, the nonsense of existense, the nonsense of non-existense, the nonsense of middle way, the nonsense of clear light, the nonsense of Buddha nature, the nonsense of rainbow body, the nonsense of illusory body, the nonsense of wisdom - at that instant you don't need to do anything.

Because your wisdom will naturally release all of your grip to all concepts, which is flying around in your head.

All of the grip will simply drop off like the hair drop off from the head in the natural way, like the leaves drop off from the tree.

Zero effort.

[Jyoti]

When you can see the nonsense of all concepts - the nonsense of consciousness, the nonsense of emptiness, the nonsense of nothingness, the nonsense of existense, the nonsense of non-existense, the nonsense of middle way- at that instant you don't need to do anything.
.

By having to reject something, it mean you are still within the realm of acceptance and rejection which is of words and concepts. Like you can only accept the nonsense of many things and still find a need to reserve the last - buddha nature. In reality, even buddha nature is just a label.

[DarwidHalim]

When you do not see existence, do not see non existence, do not see middle,

Acceptance and rejection are redundant.

[Jyoti]

When you do not see existence, do not see non existence, do not see middle,

[DarwidHalim]

[catmoon]

If one "focuses" on emptiness, it is not emptiness.

Yes
The only way it is possible to focus on emptiness is by conceptually construct one.

Hmmmm... that would make emptiness a concept, wouldn't it?

[Jyoti]

Hmmmm... that would make emptiness a concept, wouldn't it?

Yes, it is. So one does not focus on emptiness.

Jyoti