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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:58 am 
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The ability not to know the different between emptiness and nothingness is the major disaster in reading heart sutra.

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:00 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
The ability not to know the different between emptiness and nothingness is the major disaster in reading heart sutra.


Where in the Sutra is 'nothingness' addressed?

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:01 am 
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You can't find the word nothingness in heart sutra, because that is not the meaning of emptiness.

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I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:03 am 
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All this talk of emptiness is a sickness. Just smell the roses and enjoy. The fact of the experience of enjoying tells you all you need to know about emptiness and awareness. I'd rather be an ignorant chef who makes great food then be a madhyamaka expert.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:06 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
... that is not the meaning of emptiness.


Yes. we've already established that...

Andrew108 wrote:
All this talk of emptiness is a sickness. Just smell the roses and enjoy.



Can't both be done? The 'talk' is just that. :smile:

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:08 am 
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This sky is empty of clouds, but this sky is not nothing of clouds.
Image


This sky is empty of clouds, and this sky is also nothing of clouds.
Image

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Last edited by DarwidHalim on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:12 am 
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Very nice illustrations! :smile:

Is there a differnce between 'consciousness' and 'consciousness of consciousness'?

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:22 am 
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It is difficult to explain that using words, because the best way to explain the difference between emptiness and nothingness is using photo.

Consciousness and consciousness of consciousness.

From the perspective of treating consciousness as a substance, then the consciousness of consciousness is the double consciousness. It is the consciousness that overlay the consciousness.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:26 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
It is the consciousness that overlay the consciousness.


Thank you.

Are BOTH consciousnesses empty?

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:28 am 
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Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

Emptiness is also just label.

That is why it is also rejected.

Emptiness of emptiness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:34 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.


O.K. It seems you and Joyti have a fundamental disagreement about what is 'consciousness' and, therefore, what is 'Buddha nature'... but NOT about what is 'emptiness'.

Thank you, DarwidHalim! I wanted to check my own understanding of both the positions. :smile:

:focus:

:namaste:

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If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:15 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Both are empty.

When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.

Emptiness is also just label.

That is why it is also rejected.

Emptiness of emptiness.

What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".

And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.

I wish you good luck in seeing you true nature by rejecting. You will need it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:08 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Both are empty.
When we know consciousness is empty, then we can reject the label of consciousness.
Emptiness is also just label.
That is why it is also rejected.
Emptiness of emptiness.
What you left is just "nakedness" and "bareness".
And that is your buddha nature shining without impediments.


If you think you need to fulfill all of the above in order for buddha nature to shine without impediments, than you have not realized the nature. Why?

The nature is beyond causes, but in the above you have stated several causes, e.g. rejecting certain labels, accepting several concept such as 'Emptiness of emptiness', "nakedness" and "bareness".

Jyoti


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:26 am 
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So the word "reject" there giving the meaning like throwing someone out of the window, isn't it?

Unfortunately, that is not what I mean.

When you can see the nonsense of all concepts - the nonsense of consciousness, the nonsense of emptiness, the nonsense of nothingness, the nonsense of existense, the nonsense of non-existense, the nonsense of middle way, the nonsense of clear light, the nonsense of Buddha nature, the nonsense of rainbow body, the nonsense of illusory body, the nonsense of wisdom - at that instant you don't need to do anything.

Because your wisdom will naturally release all of your grip to all concepts, which is flying around in your head.

All of the grip will simply drop off like the hair drop off from the head in the natural way, like the leaves drop off from the tree.

Zero effort.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:39 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
When you can see the nonsense of all concepts - the nonsense of consciousness, the nonsense of emptiness, the nonsense of nothingness, the nonsense of existense, the nonsense of non-existense, the nonsense of middle way- at that instant you don't need to do anything.
.


By having to reject something, it mean you are still within the realm of acceptance and rejection which is of words and concepts. Like you can only accept the nonsense of many things and still find a need to reserve the last - buddha nature. In reality, even buddha nature is just a label.


Last edited by Jyoti on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:42 am 
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When you do not see existence, do not see non existence, do not see middle,

Acceptance and rejection are redundant.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:50 am 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
When you do not see existence, do not see non existence, do not see middle,


:thinking:


Last edited by Jyoti on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:56 am 
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Image

Image

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Jyoti wrote:
Jeff wrote:
If one "focuses" on emptiness, it is not emptiness.

:smile:


Yes :twothumbsup:
The only way it is possible to focus on emptiness is by conceptually construct one.



Hmmmm... that would make emptiness a concept, wouldn't it?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:14 pm 
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catmoon wrote:
Hmmmm... that would make emptiness a concept, wouldn't it?


Yes, it is. So one does not focus on emptiness.

Jyoti


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