Consciousness as just a sticker.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:11 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Consciousness is like emptiness.

What do you mean by this?


It means emptiness of all characteristics within the body of consciousness, conventional phenomena possessed all apparent characteristics, the 6 sensory perceptions all have their own individual characteristics not shared by the other, none of the 6 sensory perceptions are able to focus on emptiness, because emptiness does not have characteristics in its own to obscure the characteristics of the sensory perceptions, viz. even if there is an attempt to focus on emptiness, the characteristics of the sensory perceptions remains the same. Thus, it is said it is the same as if one didn't focus on emptiness in the first place.

In emptiness, there is no consciousness. Now you said consciousness is like emptiness. It is again self contradicting.


This is true only by referring to an abstract idea about the characteristic of emptiness itself. I'm not referring to the characteristic of emptiness, in buddhism there is no such emptiness either.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:20 am

Since you also know there no even emptiness, how can then you posit there is consciousness?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:36 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Since you also know there no even emptiness, how can then you posit there is consciousness?


The 12 entrances and the aggregates are none other than consciousness. The 7 consciousnesses are the branch, whereas the 8th consciousness is the root of consciousness. It is easy enough to observe (prove) the 7 consciousnesses in its daily activities. As for the 8th consciousness, it can be observe (prove) either through the formless and/or cessation meditation, or by observing the heat of the person between the point of life and death (i.e. the process of dying).

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:43 am

Jyoti:
in buddhism there is no such emptiness either.


Above statement is contradicting with your next statement.

The 12 entrances and the aggregates are none other than consciousness. The 7 consciousnesses are the branch, whereas the 8th consciousness is the root of consciousness. It is easy enough to observe (prove) the 7 consciousnesses in its daily activities. As for the 8th consciousness, it can be observe (prove) either through the formless and/or cessation meditation, or by observing the heat of the person between the point of life and death (i.e. the process of dying).


Please don't play a game of hide and seek.

You need to explain your contradiction statement.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:49 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
Jyoti:
in buddhism there is no such emptiness either.


Above statement is contradicting with your next statement.

The 12 entrances and the aggregates are none other than consciousness. The 7 consciousnesses are the branch, whereas the 8th consciousness is the root of consciousness. It is easy enough to observe (prove) the 7 consciousnesses in its daily activities. As for the 8th consciousness, it can be observe (prove) either through the formless and/or cessation meditation, or by observing the heat of the person between the point of life and death (i.e. the process of dying).


Please don't play a game of hide and seek.

You need to explain your contradiction statement.


I think you need to point out precisely the points of contradictions.
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:10 am

This is the price point of contradiction.

DarwidHalim:
Since you also know there no even emptiness, how can then you posit there is consciousness?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:31 am

DarwidHalim wrote:This is the price point of contradiction.

DarwidHalim:
Since you also know there no even emptiness, how can then you posit there is consciousness?


There is the consciousness since it is not the conceptual emptiness, viz. it is merely emptied of characteristics, but not empty of itself.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:48 am

Jyoti wrote:There is the consciousness since it is not the conceptual emptiness, viz. it is merely emptied of characteristics, but not empty of itself.


This is precisely what Ju Mipham said that ultimate truth is treated as a negation of rabbit horn.

You propose consciousness:
- Characteristics of consciousness.
- Self of consciousness.

You reject the characteristics of consciousness by saying consciousness is empty of character.

But you assert,

Consciousness exist by saying consciousness is not empty of itself.

-----------------------------

That is what Ju Mipham said rabbit horn syndrom.

Rabbit has no horn, that is why rabbit is empty of horn.
Rabbit has no characteristic of horn, that is why rabbit is empty of characteristic of horn,
But,
Rabbit is not empty of rabbit, because there is a rabbit.

You negate something which you can't see and touch, which is the rabbit horn,
But, you cannot negate the something which you can see and touch, which is the rabbit itself.

Emptiness is a very daring subject.
Because emptiness teaching tell you boldly, consciousness is empty of itself (empty of consciousness).


This discussion can be very long, because there is a fundamental mistake here in assessing the meaning of emptiness.

Because of that, it makes you assert the existence of consciousness by saying consciousness is not empty of itself.

The teaching of buddha is the teaching of no self. So, from this point of view, you should acknowledge here, that the way you see the thing has a distortion.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:19 am

DarwidHalim wrote:This is precisely what Ju Mipham said that ultimate truth is treated as a negation of rabbit horn.

You propose consciousness:
- Characteristics of consciousness.
- Self of consciousness.

You reject the characteristics of consciousness by saying consciousness is empty of character.

But you assert,

Consciousness exist by saying consciousness is not empty of itself.


If consciousness doesn't exist, then there is no purpose of saying 'consciousness is empty of characteristics'.

Emptiness is a very daring subject.
Because emptiness teaching tell you boldly, consciousness is empty of itself (empty of consciousness).
This discussion can be very long, because there is a fundamental mistake here in assessing the meaning of emptiness.
Because of that, it makes you assert the existence of consciousness by saying consciousness is not empty of itself.



The teaching of emptiness in the PP sutra belong exclusively to the second turning, that's why it is not considered definitive without interpretation, also in the teaching of emptiness within the sutra, there is no mentioning of consciousness. Emptiness is used to describe form, and form is being describe as emptiness, actually emptiness here has a hidden intention, it is used to describe the meaning of consciousness and the ultimate truth of phenomena. Thus, the word emptiness should not be taken literally without right interpretation.

The teaching of buddha is the teaching of no self. So, from this point of view, you should acknowledge here, that the way you see the thing has a distortion.


The consciousness does not equate to the atman, the concept of atman is created due to failure to recognize the existence of consciousness. One cannot properly understood the no-self without understood the existence of consciousness. Just as one cannot understood 'mere appearance' without properly understood 'thusness'.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:37 am

Between the transition process of seed and sprout, that transition cannot be said as this or that.

Why?

In the middle of that transition, you are in transition. You cannot say this is seed, and you cannot say this is sprout.

However, in the middle of that transition, you also cannot say that transition as nothingness, because it is obvious there is a transition.

In the middle of that transition, you can put any labels you want, you can say whatever thing you want, but it is simply meaningless.

Why is it meaningless?
Because in the middle of transition, there is nothing stable. You cannot put a sticker on the flow of process. Because your sticker doesn't have the precise position to hold.

So, people can say anything they want in the transition between seed and sprout. But whatever, they say besides it is meaningless, it is also a mistake, because you cannot glue your sticker on the fixed position, and declare this is this, this is that.

Pointless. It is completely meaningless.
Your sticker cannot be glued to the current to the process.

So, if you can understand this, you should be able to understand that in the process between seed and sprout, you cannot say that process as this or that, and you also cannot say that as nothingness.

When you enlarge your view that everything is actually always in the middle of transition, in the middle of process, you really cannot say this as this or that.

When you fully understand this, you can even know that actually whatever label you put, it is a self mistaken. Because you cannot put anything in the middle of the flow. Can you?

When everything is just a process of dependent arising, it is the consequence of that process itself that you cannot assert thing as this and that.

It is also the consequence of that process itself that you will not find a specific item.

Knowing this, you then know the fundamental mistaken, the unavoidable mistaken, when we put the sticker.

Your sticker will always and always miss where that sticker has to stick on.

When someone know that dependent arising, cannot be say as such and such, they can see precisely that even that say thing as such and such, it is basically pointless.

By knowing that reality cannot be projecting as such and such, even after you projecting, you are always in the domain of missing the point, you can then come to the full assertion that in this middle of process, nothing can be pointed, and that empty is also refering to the process, so empty cannot mean nothingness as well.

You then see the fragility of projection, the uselessness of projection, not because you cannot project, but it is because you are push by the system in such a way that nothing can be projected. If you project, you always miss.

When you see that, you come to the solid conclusion that everything, which is in the middle of process, is indeed always empty of itself.

If you understand this process, you can notice that in the middle of meditation, regardless whatever thoughts running in your head, you can always be still.

How can we still in the middle of thoughts process? Because that middle of your thought process is always and always empty of itself. That process is empty. Because that is process, it is also not nothingness. You come to the union here between Empty-Process. (which at this point the lack of self and the appearance are working nicely hand in hand)

You can also see then that actually when you are in the post-medatation as well, everything you are doing, everything you are talking, sleeping or whatever, all of them are just the middle of never end process. It is therefore, always and always empty of itself.

When you can see meditation and post-meditation is empty of itself, you can see that the separation is coming because you don't know there are actually just same process.

You can also see that nirvana and samsara are just same, because both are always in the middle of process, and therefore, it will always empty of itself. Again, the separation is coming because we don't know the nature.

When you can see that in fact you cannot get out from the domain of process, you are in fact cannot get out from the domain of emptiness of self.

In this way, whatever you are saying is nothing more than just a sticker.
A sticker that can never be glued.
A floating sticker.

Consciousness is just a floating sticker.
Because in the middle of process, you cannot find consciousness. Middle of process is always and always empty of itself.

So, consiousness is nothing than just a ignorant fantasy and a foolish projection.

When you see this with 12 links, you should then understand why buddha say that only people who has ignorant (link no. 1), can have consciousness (link No. 3).

Why?
Because for people who do not have ignorant, who can see emptiness of self, they can see that in the middle of process it is always empty of self. In this way, they will not see consciousness at all.
No ignorant, no consciousness.

Because at the end, consciousness is nothing more than just a projection of ignorant mind, a foolish projection - a self-mistaken floating sticker.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:10 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Between the transition process......on the flow of process...to the current to the process.... in the process between seed and sprout...in the middle of process.. in the middle of the flow...just a process.. it is the consequence of that process itself..It is also the consequence of that process itself...empty is also refering to the process.. in the middle of process...If you understand this process... in the middle of thoughts process... middle of your thought process...process is empty... that is process...between Empty-Process...the middle of never end process...there are actually just same process...both are always in the middle of process...from the domain of process......in the middle of process...Middle of process is always and always empty of itself...in the middle of process...

Because at the end, consciousness is nothing more than just a projection of ignorant mind, a foolish projection - a self-mistaken floating sticker.


So far you only make one point, that you dislike the name/sticker 'consciousness'. But your whole argument against the establishing of sticker does not stand. The reason is while you appear to against sticker, you have already established your own sticker in the name of 'process'. This 'process' is actually just the continuum of the consciousness.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:32 am

Only people who do not know emptiness of self will projecting the sticker as the contiuum of consciousness.

You actually made a lot of strange points:
the concept of atman is created due to failure to recognize the existence of consciousness


The truth is another way around.
The concept of atman is created due to the recognition of the existence of consciousness.

The teaching of emptiness in the PP sutra belong exclusively to the second turning, that's why it is not considered definitive without interpretation, also in the teaching of emptiness within the sutra, there is no mentioning of consciousness.


Heart Sutra reject consciousness twice.
It rejects the self of consciousness.
And
It rejects the characteristic of consciousness.

This is where heart sutra directly reject the self of consciousness:
"Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself is form. So too, are feeling, cognition, formation, and CONSCIOUSNESS."

THis is where heart sutra directly and boldly reject the characteristic of consciousness
Sariputra, all Dharmas are empty of CHARACTERISTICS......
Therefore, in emptiness, there is no form, feeliing, cognition, formation, or CONSCIOUSNESS.

So, clearly Heart Sutra said that.

At Heart SUtra said this close to the end:
"Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and he leaves DISTORTED DREAM-THINKING FAR BEHIND"

-----------------------

Consciousness is nothing more than a distorted dream thinking.

If something is wrong, there is no point to carry the coffin of wrong stuff.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:00 am

DarwidHalim wrote:You actually made a lot of strange points:
the concept of atman is created due to failure to recognize the existence of consciousness


The truth is another way around.
The concept of atman is created due to the recognition of the existence of consciousness.


This only show the fact that consciousness exist, and that due to its twofold manifestation of subjective and objective perceptions, that the subjective perception being mistaken as atman, whereas the objective perceptions being mistaken as real, separate entities. The simple negation of consciousness is not going to clear the mistaken perceptions, the reason is the twofold manifestation of subjective and objective perceptions cannot be eliminated. On the other hand, to refute the existence of consciousness would be to forcefully eliminate the cause and support of mistaken perceptions, and then one would have to rationalize ignorance as without a first cause, which is an error.

Heart Sutra reject consciousness twice.
It rejects the self of consciousness.
And
It rejects the characteristic of consciousness.

This is where heart sutra directly reject the self of consciousness:
"Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself is form. So too, are feeling, cognition, formation, and CONSCIOUSNESS."


I did not suggest consciousness as atman.

THis is where heart sutra directly and boldly reject the characteristic of consciousness
Sariputra, all Dharmas are empty of CHARACTERISTICS......
Therefore, in emptiness, there is no form, feeliing, cognition, formation, or CONSCIOUSNESS.


I already stated consciousness is emptied of characteristics.

So, clearly Heart Sutra said that.

At Heart SUtra said this close to the end:
"Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and he leaves DISTORTED DREAM-THINKING FAR BEHIND"

-----------------------

Consciousness is nothing more than a distorted dream thinking.



There is not a direct reference of the sutra that say 'Consciousness is nothing more than a distorted dream thinking'.

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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby viniketa » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:17 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Heart Sutra reject consciousness twice.
It rejects the self of consciousness.
And
It rejects the characteristic of consciousness.

This is where heart sutra directly reject the self of [dual-]consciousness:
"Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself is form. So too, are feeling, cognition, formation, and [dual-]CONSCIOUSNESS."

THis is where heart sutra directly and boldly reject the characteristic of [dual-]consciousness
Sariputra, all Dharmas are empty of CHARACTERISTICS......
Therefore, in emptiness, there is no form, feeling, cognition, formation. or CONSCIOUSNESS [strikethrough].

So, clearly Heart Sutra said that.

At Heart SUtra said this close to the end:
"Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and he leaves DISTORTED DREAM-THINKING FAR BEHIND"

-----------------------

[dual-]Consciousness is nothing more than a distorted dream thinking.

If something is wrong, there is no point to carry the coffin of wrong stuff.


In a conversation on Madhyamaka one time, someone said, "Even the Middle Way can become an extreme"... :rolling:

al-jabra

emptiness = hare's horn dual-consciousness = hare's horn

: hare's horn = hare's horn


:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:39 am

That is because they forget that even nothingness is rejected.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby viniketa » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:41 am

DarwidHalim wrote:That is because they forget that even nothingness is rejected.


Do you (conventionally) perceive a distinction between 'nothingness' and 'emptiness'?

:namaste:

*P.S. BTW, this seems a very nice translation: http://oaks.nvg.org/heart-sutra.html#b
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:46 am

That is like fire and water. Completely different.

Emptiness is Non-implicative negation.

Nothingness is implicative negation.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby viniketa » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:49 am

DarwidHalim wrote:That is like fire and water. Completely different.


Which is empty of itself? Nothingness or emptiness?

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:52 am

Empty of itself has a complete different meaning with nothing of itself.

Emptiness is non-implicative negation.

Nothingness is implicative negation.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
User avatar
DarwidHalim
 
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: Consciousness as just a sticker.

Postby viniketa » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:57 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Empty of itself has a complete different meaning with nothing of itself.

Emptiness is non-implicative negation.

Nothingness is implicative negation.


Ladies and gentlemen, perhaps what we have here is a total breakdown in communications revolving around:

-> emptiness vs. nothingness

AND

-> dual-consciousness vs. consciousness.

:thinking:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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