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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:51 am 
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Quote:
Jyoti:
Consciousness is not composed of concept, so it cannot be prove or dis-proven by concept. There is no buddhist teaching high or low that is not based on the consciousness as the basis.


(I separate this topic)

So for you, it is clear that consciousness is not just a sticker. For you, if I take out the sticker, I will still able to see this unnamed consciousness.

Do you know that in 12 links dependent, no. 1 is ignorant, no. 3 is consciousness?

You should see there, because you have ignorant, then you can have consciousness.

If you don't have ignorant, you won't have consciousness.

But our position is different, regardless there is ignorant or know, consciousness is always there.

You remove the sticker, but you hold the unnamed basis as unnamed consciousness.

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I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 am 
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How do you know that the Consciousness is real?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
How do you know that the Consciousness is real?

How do you know what "real" means?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:02 pm 
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To know the unknowable!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:54 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
So for you, it is clear that consciousness is not just a sticker. For you, if I take out the sticker, I will still able to see this unnamed consciousness.



You can see consciousness, but clinging to unname is still a clinging, as there is no purpose in the clinging. The name helps in communication both written and verbal.

Quote:
Do you know that in 12 links dependent, no. 1 is ignorant, no. 3 is consciousness?

You should see there, because you have ignorant, then you can have consciousness.

If you don't have ignorant, you won't have consciousness.


This is not actually the case, ignorance is none other than consciousness, without consciousness there is no ignorance, but there would be no capacity for existence (including awakening) as well.


Quote:
But our position is different, regardless there is ignorant or know, consciousness is always there.


As you say 'If you don't have ignorant, you won't have consciousness', if this statement is true, then there cannot be 'regardless there is ignorant or know', while still maintaining the statement 'consciousness is always there'.

Jyoti


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:21 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Do you know that in 12 links dependent, no. 1 is ignorant, no. 3 is consciousness?

You should see there, because you have ignorant, then you can have consciousness.

If you don't have ignorant, you won't have consciousness.

But our position is different, regardless there is ignorant or know, consciousness is always there.

You remove the sticker, but you hold the unnamed basis as unnamed consciousness.


I'm not so sure that everyone is agreed on the 12 linked chain of causation. There seems to be some variance even in the Pali Suttas -

DN 15 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html
Quote:
"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'


In some expositions, we find that the chain of causation has its beginning in a feedback loop between Consciousness and Name-and-Form. Buddhaghosa comments that this is an inferior understanding of causation that is limited to the conditioned world... I'm a little skeptical.

I have not tried to think out the full implications of this teaching, but it seems to me that Consciousness is taken to be some inherent aspect of Reality. My sense is that this theme is taken up by Tathagata Garbha Mahayanists.

I don't expect there to be a resolution to this - this debate has been going on since long before any of us got here and will be going on long after we're gone.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Look, if there is consciousness, whether you want to name it or not, you won't be able not to attach to it.

Because if there is consciousness, that consciousness is your part, it is the one that control you, and it is impossible for the controller not to control itself.

So, jyoti, your concept about consciousness is contradicting itself.

Do you know where is the contradiction?
If you have consciousness and consciousness is the central of your activity, it is impossible then not to attach to it, because it will be like consciousness trying to ignore itself.

That is self contradicting.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:58 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
because it will be like consciousness trying to ignore itself.


Maybe that's what ignorance is.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:02 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Look, if there is consciousness, whether you want to name it or not, you won't be able not to attach to it.

Because if there is consciousness, that consciousness is your part, it is the one that control you, and it is impossible for the controller not to control itself.

So, jyoti, your concept about consciousness is contradicting itself.

Do you know where is the contradiction?
If you have consciousness and consciousness is the central of your activity, it is impossible then not to attach to it, because it will be like consciousness trying to ignore itself.



Consciousness itself does not have conventional characteristics, one who knows consciousness does not bother with it, does not focus on it, nor trying to become it (becoming attached). But for the convenience of reference, one name it as its existence is true. Conversely if one afraid of the name, that fear is a reflection of ignorance.

As for consciousness can control oneself, this is not the case, the root consciousness is neutral in action and effect/retribution, rather it is one's failure of perfuming the seed of thusness within the storehouse, that the intellect is not attained.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Jyoti wrote:

Consciousness itself does not have conventional characteristics, one who knows consciousness does not bother with it, does not focus on it, nor trying to become it (becoming attached). But for the convenience of reference, one name it as its existence is true. Conversely if one afraid of the name, that fear is a reflection of ignorance.



This is impossible. If you have consciousness and you try not to focus on it, you Will completely lost control, you won't be able to speak, to walk, to sit, and so on. Because the central of all your activity is in this consciousness. So, if you don't focus on it, you are actually game over.

This is the contradiction that you posit:
There is consciousness, but you don't need to focus in it. The contradiction is very obvious. If you have consciousness, within all your activity, whether you want to ignore it or not, you will always in the domain of consciousness. Because you are always in the domain of consciousness, you cannot ignore that, because by ignoring consciousness, you are still in the domain of consciousness.

Having consciousness, but trying not to focus on it is equivalent to game over, because you lost the controller.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Last edited by DarwidHalim on Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:16 pm 
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[quote="Jyoti"]

This is not actually the case, ignorance is none other than consciousness, without consciousness there is no ignorance, but there would be no capacity for existence (including awakening) as well.

[quote]

Very wise words. One rarely sees them written.

:smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:26 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
This is impossible. If you have consciousness and you try not to focus on it, you Will completely lost control, you won't be able to speak, to walk, to sit, and so on. Because the central of all your activity is in this consciousness. So, if you don't focus on it, you are actually game over.


Again this is not the case, consciousness is like emptiness, it doesn't make a difference whether or not you have focus on emptiness, because if you did, it will be the same as if you didn't focus on anything. It won't make a slightest difference for any activity within emptiness.

Jyoti


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Jyoti wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
This is impossible. If you have consciousness and you try not to focus on it, you Will completely lost control, you won't be able to speak, to walk, to sit, and so on. Because the central of all your activity is in this consciousness. So, if you don't focus on it, you are actually game over.


Again this is not the case, consciousness is like emptiness, it doesn't make a difference whether or not you have focus on emptiness, because if you did, it will be the same as if you didn't focus on anything. It won't make a slightest difference for any activity within emptiness.

Jyoti


If one "focuses" on emptiness, it is not emptiness.

:smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Consciousness is like emptiness.

What do you mean by this?

In emptiness, there is no consciousness. Now you said consciousness is like emptiness. It is again self contradicting.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:43 pm 
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DarwidHalim wrote:
Quote:
Jyoti:
Consciousness is not composed of concept, so it cannot be prove or dis-proven by concept. There is no buddhist teaching high or low that is not based on the consciousness as the basis.


(I separate this topic)

So for you, it is clear that consciousness is not just a sticker. For you, if I take out the sticker, I will still able to see this unnamed consciousness.

Do you know that in 12 links dependent, no. 1 is ignorant, no. 3 is consciousness?

You should see there, because you have ignorant, then you can have consciousness.

If you don't have ignorant, you won't have consciousness.

But our position is different, regardless there is ignorant or know, consciousness is always there.

You remove the sticker, but you hold the unnamed basis as unnamed consciousness.


A lot of tallying up rabbit horns, shearing the hair of turtles, and breastfeeding children of barren women.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
To know the unknowable!

Yea, right... now take your question and replace "real" with you definition and you will see how dumb question you asked.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Words are just words, it is the meaning behind them that matters most.
However the question is still a valid one.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
Words are just words, it is the meaning behind them that matters most.
However the question is still a valid one.



A meaning separate from words cannot be meaningfully discussed.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:27 pm 
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So if one were to read the entire Pali Canon, one would automatically achieve Enlightenment?
Can the truth really be read and told directly?
Is that even possible?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:51 am 
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Jeff wrote:
If one "focuses" on emptiness, it is not emptiness.

:smile:


Yes :twothumbsup:
The only way it is possible to focus on emptiness is by conceptually construct one.


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