World must go vege.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: it is acceptable to eat meat from an environmental point.


That is not what anyone is saying. It is not acceptable to eat grain fed meat.


You are advocating pasture raised cattle for slaughter. This is not realistic, especially in a growing population. As Huseng mentions, the population densities are rising. What pasture is available in Bangladesh, for example?
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:50 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: it is acceptable to eat meat from an environmental point.


That is not what anyone is saying. It is not acceptable to eat grain fed meat.


You are advocating pasture raised cattle for slaughter. This is not realistic, especially in a growing population. As Huseng mentions, the population densities are rising. What pasture is available in Bangladesh, for example?


It is more realistic that Mcmansions with five acres in subdivisions where even gardening is prohibited, much less raising fowl.

If you want to understand the issues around Indian agriculture, read Vandana Shiva and Annam Bhrama: Organic Food in India. Also read Fatal Harvest if you really want to know how screwed up the industrial agriculture system is. Going vegetarian won't fix it.

In our own country, as I said, massive agricultural reforms to stimulate small farms all over is what is needed to forestall any food supply crises.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Nemo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:35 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I find it somewhat interesting and perhaps ironic that some posters who advocate socialist/communist/leftist political ideologies feel that there is not much of a problem or that it is acceptable to eat meat from an environmental point.

I would think that the 'compassionate' ideas found in leftist thinking; that we are all in this world together and should help each other out and make the world a better place, would lead to thinking that this is a crucial matter and we should adopt agriculture policies more in line with preventing such catastrophes to the world, pollution, global warming, etc. and the best move toward that is one more towards a vegan diet.

Just sayin' :stirthepot: Fire away when ready. :tongue:


From an environmental point of view eating meat, seafood or veggies is all a matter of sustainability. From an environmental perspective to become vegan without grappling with overpopulation and socioeconomic inequalities is a total waste of time. From a compassionate point of view one should cause as little pain as possible to sentient beings. 1 in40,000 will die on an exclusively vege diet. Years of being veg destroyed my health and left me looking like a cancer patient. So it gets rather complicated. Those weird vegans who have vegetarian tigers don't look very compassionate to me. Alternatives to meat can be engineered, but there seems to be little will to do so.

It is at least ten years(probably 20) too late to avert the environmental consequences of our actions. From an environmental perspective it really doesn't matter anymore. The world is too ethically challenged to understand environmentalism. If it wasn't, since all this was known in the 1980's, it would be fixed by now. We wouldn't have started using trillions of pounds of food every year to run SUV's. The world is ramping up for the Resource Wars, not embracing sustainability. Why quit smoking if your cancer is terminal?
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby dharmagoat » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Nemo wrote:Why quit smoking if your cancer is terminal?

1. Maybe quitting smoking will allow you a slightly better quality of life, no matter how long you have to live.
2. Quitting smoking will be a positive example to others who would benefit from doing the same.
3. Quitting smoking will save you money, leaving more available for funeral expenses.
4. Not smoking means not supporting the tobacco companies which are largely responsible for your terminal condition in the first place.
5. Not smoking will spare others from breathing your second-hand smoke.
6. You might just feel that you have accomplished something.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Nemo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:24 pm

dharmagoat wrote:2. be a positive example to others who would benefit from doing the same.


We will definitely be an example. But more of the cautionary tale variety.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:02 am

Some might react with skepticism to the word "depopulation" in the title, but it's actually a really informative short article:

http://occupycorporatism.com/gm-crops-w ... ill-gates/

Monsanto & the FDA and their GMO's; Bill Gates, and the military-industrial complex (who first poisoned our food with synthetic pesticides), aren't going to solve world hunger. They're making it worse.

I'm probably/hopefully preaching to the choir here.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:44 am

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/08/ ... ooks-like/

“This particular steer was bought at auction when it was a calf, after buying the steer, paying for the guy to slaugter and deliver it to the butcher, then paying the butcher, the end cost was about $2/pound. The cheapest hamburger goes for about $3.50/lb where I live. He grazed for about 9 months before he was killed.

We now have a few cows and there’s a bull that visits when they want a gentleman caller. Last year we kept a calf from one of the cows and just had him slaughtered in June. Cost on that one was just over $1/lb. I’ve been told that the quality of the meat is on par with the organic free-range grass fed beef you’d find in high end grocery stores for upwards of $15-$20/lb. I’ve never bought that kind of meat so that’s just hearsay…

Grass is cheap, you don’t get as much meat and they grow slower, but the meat is lean and delicious. Also the cattle don’t seem to get sick when you’re not loading them up with grain and regular animal feed, so vet costs are few and far between.

We split the meat with another family since one steer produces a lot. I share some with my family and put the rest into a chest freezer at -10 degrees, it lasts 9 months easy, the ground beef will go a year pretty easy. If it gets too close to being too old we have a big BBQ to use up anything that’s at the limit. I also have a lot of it sliced for jerky, probably 20lbs or so out of each steer ends up as jerky…

Once you go grass fed the meat from the store will taste really funny. It’s got a much meatier flavor, for lack of a better word. Also leaner, and the fat that it does have has a much better flavor. This steer was split between 2 families, a total of 4 adults and 7 kids. It yielded around 320 pounds of meat which lasted about 6 months.”
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:52 am

Grass-fed milk is different tasting at first, but is actually really good.


Malcolm wrote:Mcmansions with five acres in subdivisions where even gardening is prohibited


McMansions lol. I'd first heard that term from my sister a couple years ago. The McMansion-mentality is horrible.

Would be nice if people could garden in their own yards; and could also buy raw milk without getting raided by the SWAT team.







(Many so-called "liberals" ("libertine" actually better describes many who consider themselves "liberal" nowadays) don't like Ron Paul^, but he's a lot more progressive than any far-leftist I've ever heard.)
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby catmoon » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:32 am

bunny wrote:treehuggingoctopus: I've never tried insects nor will I ever. I take your word for it.


Never had a shrimp? A lobster? Crab? Just large, seagoing bugs.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby bunny » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:37 am

catmoon: never had a shrimp, lobster, nothing from the sea.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 am

A cure for the UK's headlice epidemic! Groom your children and pets and eat their lice and fleas!

Seriously, though, for Westerners there is no need to eat any being, alive or dead.

The two meat-eaters' defences - that a vegetarian diet is harmfully deficient and we were born as omnivores - are contradictory. If humans were proven to be natural omnivores, it would simply be more evidence that we can survive on a wide variety of diets. I've never heard of a race dying out because of lack of meat. Lack of crops, however, is still a worldwide killer.

It suits the Western governments to feed the people who elect them whatever food they want, and let the rest of the world starve.

Satisfice the electorate generally, but remember to keep them comforted and passive with their fat and sugar opiates. And never, ever, remind burger munchers of the origin of the pink-dyed backfat they are enjoying.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Nemo » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:44 am

Blue Garuda wrote:The two meat-eaters' defences - that a vegetarian diet is harmfully deficient and we were born as omnivores - are contradictory. If humans were proven to be natural omnivores, it would simply be more evidence that we can survive on a wide variety of diets.


The discovery of human metabolic needs for vitamins and minerals disproved your theory in the 1920's. Primary carnitine deficiency can cause cardiomyopathy. If you inherited the recessive SLC22A5 gene you will not be able to synthesize it from lysine and methionine. It can be as common as 1 in 200 in some regional genetic subgroups of which I a member. Despite your theories having your heart tissue waste away is still a slow and painful death.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:59 pm

Nemo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:The two meat-eaters' defences - that a vegetarian diet is harmfully deficient and we were born as omnivores - are contradictory. If humans were proven to be natural omnivores, it would simply be more evidence that we can survive on a wide variety of diets.


The discovery of human metabolic needs for vitamins and minerals disproved your theory in the 1920's. Primary carnitine deficiency can cause cardiomyopathy. If you inherited the recessive SLC22A5 gene you will not be able to synthesize it from lysine and methionine. It can be as common as 1 in 200 in some regional genetic subgroups of which I a member. Despite your theories having your heart tissue waste away is still a slow and painful death.


Can a bit of dairy secure your health, without having to eat any meat?
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby viniketa » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:40 pm

Huseng wrote:Can a bit of dairy secure your health, without having to eat any meat?


In his case, not really (see below). Rice and beans together provide enough lysine and tryothine for the 'normal' human to synthesize carnitine. There are also other, non-genetic conditions that can interfere with synthesis, involving conditions of the kidney and liver.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatine

Product Quantity Carnitine
Beef steak 100 g 95 mg
Ground beef 100 g 94 mg
Pork 100 g 27.7 mg
Bacon 100 g 23.3 mg
Tempeh 100 g 19.5 mg
Cod fish 100 g 5.6 mg
Chicken breast 100 g 3.9 mg
American cheese 100 g 3.7 mg
Ice cream 100 ml 3.7 mg
Whole milk 100 ml 3.3 mg
Avocado one medium 2 mg[24]
Cottage cheese 100 g 1.1 mg
Whole-wheat bread 100 g 0.36 mg
Asparagus 100 g 0.195 mg
White bread 100 g 0.147 mg
Macaroni 100 g 0.126 mg
Peanut butter 100 g 0.083 mg
Rice (cooked) 100 g 0.0449 mg
Eggs 100 g 0.0121 mg
Orange juice 100 ml 0.0019 mg

In general, 20 to 200 mg are ingested per day by those on an omnivorous diet, whereas those on a strict vegetarian or vegan diet may ingest as little as 1 mg/day.[24] No advantage appears to exist in giving an oral dose greater than 2 g at one time, since absorption studies indicate saturation at this dose.[citation needed]
Other sources

Other sources may be found in over-the-counter vitamins, energy drinks and various other products. Products containing L-carnitine cannot be marketed as "natural health products" in Canada. L-Carnitine products and supplements are not allowed to be imported into Canada (Health Canada).[25] However, the Canadian government has issued an amendment in December 2011 allowing the sale of L-carnitine without a prescription [26]


This, however, is not an argument for wide scale agribusiness methods for production of meat.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:23 pm

viniketa wrote:
Huseng wrote:Can a bit of dairy secure your health, without having to eat any meat?


In his case, not really (see below). Rice and beans together provide enough lysine and tryothine for the 'normal' human to synthesize carnitine. There are also other, non-genetic conditions that can interfere with synthesis, involving conditions of the kidney and liver.


Thanks for the info. I was unaware of this condition.

If people need to eat meat to stay healthy, then so be it. However, like you said, that doesn't justify industrial agribusiness and factory meat production. Meat production is harming the environment (particularly the atmosphere) and drawing heavily on freshwater supplies.

If the article is correct then in much of the world the cost of meat will consequently rise in price.

If North America suffers declining agricultural output and shortages of grain (consider the present drought), hopefully there is a decision made to reduce meat production to conserve grain for other uses.

We might end up with a situation like in India where most people can't really afford to eat meat (even if they wanted to) and live mostly on lentils and simple carbohydrates like roti or rice.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:39 pm

Huseng wrote:
We might end up with a situation like in India where most people can't really afford to eat meat (even if they wanted to) and live mostly on lentils and simple carbohydrates like roti or rice.



That was the situation in North America during the 19th Century. Meat was scarce for many people;chicken and turkey were luxuries because they require grain feed.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby viniketa » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:53 pm

viniketa wrote: Rice and beans together provide enough lysine and tryothine for the 'normal' human to synthesize carnitine.


First, let me correct my mind blip error. This should read "Rice and beans together provide enough lysine and methionine for the 'normal' human to synthesize carnitine."

Huseng wrote:However, like you said, that doesn't justify industrial agribusiness and factory meat production. Meat production is harming the environment (particularly the atmosphere) and drawing heavily on freshwater supplies.


Yes, and this is true for poultry production even more so due to waste products from poultry. The water issue will become more important. In the USA, in particular, fresh water is taken too much for granted.

Gold standard economy? We should go to a water standard economy!

:namaste:

* P.S. Nice article here on carnitine: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplemen ... -CARNITINE
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:08 pm

viniketa wrote:Gold standard economy? We should go to a water standard economy!


Water is already becoming a huge issue.

In Canada people are surrounded by vast freshwater resources, though in countries like China and India water is becoming a critical issue. India wants to redirect some rivers that could drain Bangladesh. Countries like Nepal and Bhutan stand to play important strategic roles as a result.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby catmoon » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:40 am

Huseng wrote:
Water is already becoming a huge issue.

In Canada people are surrounded by vast freshwater resources, though in countries like China and India water is becoming a critical issue. India wants to redirect some rivers that could drain Bangladesh. Countries like Nepal and Bhutan stand to play important strategic roles as a result.


The resources are there, but just try and tap into them! The natives have their claims, they dont want burial grounds flooded, the dept of fisheries has a say, the ecologists might have endangered species to protect... so for the time being new projects are not happening, and here in the Greater Vancouver area we have sprinkling restrictions every summer. Dry reservoirs sometimes too.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:46 am

catmoon wrote:
Huseng wrote:
Water is already becoming a huge issue.

In Canada people are surrounded by vast freshwater resources, though in countries like China and India water is becoming a critical issue. India wants to redirect some rivers that could drain Bangladesh. Countries like Nepal and Bhutan stand to play important strategic roles as a result.


The resources are there, but just try and tap into them! The natives have their claims, they dont want burial grounds flooded, the dept of fisheries has a say, the ecologists might have endangered species to protect... so for the time being new projects are not happening, and here in the Greater Vancouver area we have sprinkling restrictions every summer. Dry reservoirs sometimes too.


I imagine that new pipeline from Alberta to the BC coast will happen. The freshwater reserves along the way are prone to be contaminated with tar sands oil.

Blah.

Canada is becoming a petro state.
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