the drajyor macabre

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the drajyor macabre

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:29 pm

Argh.

I've finally decided to teach myself to read drajyor correctly - ChNN stresses time and again that we should learn to pronounce Tibetan words in a way that is at least a bit related to the way they should be pronounced, and he's of course damn right. Enough of this silly pseudo-Tibetan chanting then, let's get down to business properly at last.

So I got meself the Drajyor book and the newly published Mantras and Invocations DVD/book combo, and started to analyse the drajyor transcriptions of the basic things we all know (or thought we knew) and love, such as the seven line prayer or Jigme Lingpa's puja, against the background of Rinpoche's reading them out slowly and clearly.

And it turns out that many of the rules spelled out in the drajyor book just don't make sense. If your apply the rules, you produce an utterance that as often corresponds to what ChNN actually says as it is way off the mark.

Has anyone tried to sort it out? Any guidance, any help? Are there any DOI handouts? A homebrew errata perhaps?

Help me, Dharma-Wheel. You're my only hope.

Btw, I don't speak or read Tibetan, of course, but I'm a philologist. Which is to say, if you want to, by all means get technical.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:29 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Argh.

I've finally decided to teach myself to read drajyor correctly - ChNN stresses time and again that we should learn to pronounce Tibetan words in a way that is at least a bit related to the way they should be pronounced, and he's of course damn right. Enough of this silly pseudo-Tibetan chanting then, let's get down to business properly at last.

So I got meself the Drajyor book and the newly published Mantras and Invocations DVD/book combo, and started to analyse the drajyor transcriptions of the basic things we all know (or thought we knew) and love, such as the seven line prayer or Jigme Lingpa's puja, against the background of Rinpoche's reading them out slowly and clearly.

And it turns out that many of the rules spelled out in the drajyor book just don't make sense. If your apply the rules, you produce an utterance that as often corresponds to what ChNN actually says as it is way off the mark.

Has anyone tried to sort it out? Any guidance, any help? Are there any DOI handouts? A homebrew errata perhaps?

Help me, Dharma-Wheel. You're my only hope.

Btw, I don't speak or read Tibetan, of course, but I'm a philologist. Which is to say, if you want to, by all means get technical.


Just learn Tibetan.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:09 pm

Thanks Malcolm.

And you know what, I'm going to. Could you recommend some decent handbooks, please? I'm afraid I'll have to do it all by myself, at least initially; can't really afford private lessons.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:18 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Thanks Malcolm.

And you know what, I'm going to. Could you recommend some decent handbooks, please? I'm afraid I'll have to do it all by myself, at least initially; can't really afford private lessons.

Manual of standard Tibetan.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:49 pm

Thanks. Will try to get it next month.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:32 pm

Just memorizing the Tibetan alphabet will go a long way towards helping you pronounce things, although pronunciations are very regional.

Note: Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.

Thanks.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:05 pm

Yudron wrote:Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.


This is definitely a DC-interest topic, as drajyor is the transcription system used by ChNN. However, I didn't want to post it in the DC thread because the latter has become much more news- and newcomers-orientated; and my struggles with drajyor are hardly something I'd like a newcomer to encounter early on.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Stewart » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:22 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Thanks. Will try to get it next month.



...until then learn the 30 consonants, you can find them lots of places online along with an audio file of someone pronouncing them. Honestly, you can learn these quite quickly. Then the vowel sounds, again once you pick up the four sounds you progress quickly. You'd be surprised.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:36 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Yudron wrote:Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.


This is definitely a DC-interest topic, as drajyor is the transcription system used by ChNN. However, I didn't want to post it in the DC thread because the latter has become much more news- and newcomers-orientated; and my struggles with drajyor are hardly something I'd like a newcomer to encounter early on.


The making of "three-way" texts (Tibetan, Phoneticized Tibetan, and English) is a topic that should be of concern to most practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism. Countless volunteer hours go into making these texts, including all those phonetics conventions that we love to hate. Maybe someday I will do a website to honor all the totally unsung heroes who are bringing the Dharma to the English speaking world via these texts. The process of coming up with (or adopting) a system of consistent phonetic renderings is much harder than it looks, and if Tibetan lamas are involved, they may want the pronunciation to go according to their regional dialect (or not.)
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby conebeckham » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:40 pm

Best thing is to learn Tibetan. Learning to "read" (i.e., pronounce written Tibetan correctly) doesn't take too long, really.

Rockwell's book, can't recall the name of it, is approachable--more so, I think, than Wilson's, though that's good as well.
Rockwell's book (two volumes, actually, but you don't need the second unless you want to work on translation exercises from the TharGyen) is available from Karma Choling, Samadhi bookstore in Vermont, I think.

There is no standard phonetic system--even CNNR's system relies on Italian phonemes......and don't get me started on the Khampa/Utsang variations you'll find out there.....
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Yudron wrote:Just memorizing the Tibetan alphabet will go a long way towards helping you pronounce things, although pronunciations are very regional.

Note: Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.

Thanks.


Not meaning to be rude, so please take this in the right way - that's a daft idea. ;)

Anyone is permitted to ask a specific question in the Dzogchen forum, including those by DC members about a DC topic.
The rest of DW is the same - staff run it that way.

Single topics do get buried in a huge thread like the DC one, which is very fast moving, and such a topic may be several pages back before even a day has passed.

What if you had a series of questions about your own Guru's teachings and practices - you'd lump the lot into one thread forever?

Unless you place all the topics related to each school in only one special thread as well, across the whole of DW, this is illogical.

Methinks you are being a little over-sensitive. If it isn't of interest to you, don't read it - simple. ;)
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Sherlock » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:08 pm

Drajyor is actually based a lot on Pinyin. Also I don't think it really is based particularly on Rinpoche's personal dialect -- the palatalized consonants represent the Lhasa dialect more. I think it's quite alright for following along invocations but indication of nasalized vowels is flawed. The first word of the third line of the Seven Line Prayer for example seems to have a nasalized "a" when I hear it although the transcriptions of it don't indicate this.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Just learn Tibetan.


The books look very pricey (£60)

Is this one any good? : TIBETAN GRAMMAR by H. A. JASCHKE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tibetan-Grammar ... 319&sr=1-1

Or is there an online course you could recommend?
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:22 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Just learn Tibetan.


The books look very pricey (£60)

Is this one any good? : TIBETAN GRAMMAR by H. A. JASCHKE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tibetan-Grammar ... 319&sr=1-1

Or is there an online course you could recommend?



Jaschke was a 19th century Christian Missionary to Tibet.

The Manual of Standard Tibetan is the new standard of excellence, I hear from all sources.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby oldbob » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:29 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Argh.

I've finally decided to teach myself to read drajyor correctly - ChNN stresses time and again that we should learn to pronounce Tibetan words in a way that is at least a bit related to the way they should be pronounced, and he's of course damn right. Enough of this silly pseudo-Tibetan chanting then, let's get down to business properly at last.

So I got meself the Drajyor book and the newly published Mantras and Invocations DVD/book combo, and started to analyse the drajyor transcriptions of the basic things we all know (or thought we knew) and love, such as the seven line prayer or Jigme Lingpa's puja, against the background of Rinpoche's reading them out slowly and clearly.

And it turns out that many of the rules spelled out in the drajyor book just don't make sense. If your apply the rules, you produce an utterance that as often corresponds to what ChNN actually says as it is way off the mark.

Has anyone tried to sort it out? Any guidance, any help? Are there any DOI handouts? A homebrew errata perhaps?

Help me, Dharma-Wheel. You're my only hope.

Btw, I don't speak or read Tibetan, of course, but I'm a philologist. Which is to say, if you want to, by all means get technical.


Maha - Argh!

Practical Drajyor Tibetan for chanting.

Don't concern with rules or errata lists. --- Just be concerned with what it sounds like.

Use an audio editing program for creating loops of a practical length for chanting.

Play the loops over and over until, "monkey hear, monkey sing."

If your philological imperative insists on a workable transcription form, then use your own system of phonetic transliteration and insert your transliterated words above every Dralyor word, based on what it sounds like on the DVD. (Take an average if it changes from time to time.)

The rule is: there are no rules because everything is errata - and the challenge is to get OK with this (sort of like "working with circumstances.") Then you can relax and join in with the beautiful singing of Rinpoche - perfectly.

Works for me. :smile:

Hope this helps,

ob

Oh you say salami and I say salomi and I'll get to Nirvana (Nirbana) before you. :smile: (Sung to the tune of "The Bonnie, Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomand.")

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Last edited by oldbob on Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:34 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Yudron wrote:Just memorizing the Tibetan alphabet will go a long way towards helping you pronounce things, although pronunciations are very regional.

Note: Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.

Thanks.


Not meaning to be rude, so please take this in the right way - that's a daft idea. ;)

Anyone is permitted to ask a specific question in the Dzogchen forum, including those by DC members about a DC topic.
The rest of DW is the same - staff run it that way.

Single topics do get buried in a huge thread like the DC one, which is very fast moving, and such a topic may be several pages back before even a day has passed.

What if you had a series of questions about your own Guru's teachings and practices - you'd lump the lot into one thread forever?

Unless you place all the topics related to each school in only one special thread as well, across the whole of DW, this is illogical.

Methinks you are being a little over-sensitive. If it isn't of interest to you, don't read it - simple. ;)


Well, I don't disagree with you that anyone can post on any topic.

I don't know what Tibetan words the "drajyor" refers too, but many Tibetan practices have the same abbreviated name, e.g. lanal for (one of thousands of) lama'i naljyors. Just put a clue in the title, e.g. "help sought with DC community drajyor", and this will be a much more welcoming forum. I'm not the most sensitive person in the world, so if I'm feeling it I'm sure others who are less verbal than I are feeling it as well.

I think everyone wants to be friendly, welcoming and kind, here. We just forget sometimes.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:41 pm

Yudron wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Yudron wrote:Just memorizing the Tibetan alphabet will go a long way towards helping you pronounce things, although pronunciations are very regional.

Note: Your post seems to be about some text of the Dzogchen Community. The Dzogchen forum is for all Dzogchen people, so please either make DC posts to the DC thread, or be clear in the title of your post what you are talking about, e.g. this one could be "Struggling with English Phonetics for Tibetan Practice Texts" and include us all in.

Thanks.


Not meaning to be rude, so please take this in the right way - that's a daft idea. ;)

Anyone is permitted to ask a specific question in the Dzogchen forum, including those by DC members about a DC topic.
The rest of DW is the same - staff run it that way.

Single topics do get buried in a huge thread like the DC one, which is very fast moving, and such a topic may be several pages back before even a day has passed.

What if you had a series of questions about your own Guru's teachings and practices - you'd lump the lot into one thread forever?

Unless you place all the topics related to each school in only one special thread as well, across the whole of DW, this is illogical.

Methinks you are being a little over-sensitive. If it isn't of interest to you, don't read it - simple. ;)


Well, I don't disagree with you that anyone can post on any topic.

I don't know what Tibetan words the "drajyor" refers too, but many Tibetan practices have the same abbreviated name, e.g. lanal for (one of thousands of) lama'i naljyors. Just put a clue in the title, e.g. "help sought with DC community drajyor", and this will be a much more welcoming forum. I'm not the most sensitive person in the world, so if I'm feeling it I'm sure others who are less verbal than I are feeling it as well.

I think everyone wants to be friendly, welcoming and kind, here. We just forget sometimes.


sgra sbyor meanings "putting sounds together" and is the name of ChNN's transcripton system.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:49 pm

"sgra sbyor meanings "putting sounds together" and is the name of ChNN's transcripton system."

Oh, I was guessing perhaps it was a "joining with sound" practice.

Our Vajrayana Foundation publications group, Bero Jeydren, has a manual for phonetics, but it only circulates to the text makers. That is a cool idea to have it circulate to everyone.
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Tara » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:06 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:The books look very pricey (£60)


Wisdom Books (UK) have "Manual of Standard Tibetan" priced at £47.59, http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=11986
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Re: the drajyor macabre

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:24 pm

Tara wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:The books look very pricey (£60)


Wisdom Books (UK) have "Manual of Standard Tibetan" priced at £47.59, http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=11986


Thanks. :)

I'm into free eBooks when I can get them. Xmas for the book, maybe.
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