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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:20 am 
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Kaji wrote:
I have learned that there is another sign to see if the deceased person has been reborn to the Pure Land: 8 hours after the person has stopped breathing if the top of the body's head is still warm it is indication that the person has been reborn (or is on the way) to the Pure Land. This has to be done very gently and carefully, to avoid the risk of disturbing the body and upsetting the person's bardo.


that's true, however if i am not wrong it's not 100 percent, as a person reborn in heavenly realm also have such a sign. maybe not right at the top of the head. the surest sign i know so far is the indication of the person seeing Amitabha himself. :smile:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:03 pm 
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sinweiy wrote:
Kaji wrote:
I have learned that there is another sign to see if the deceased person has been reborn to the Pure Land: 8 hours after the person has stopped breathing if the top of the body's head is still warm it is indication that the person has been reborn (or is on the way) to the Pure Land. This has to be done very gently and carefully, to avoid the risk of disturbing the body and upsetting the person's bardo.


that's true, however if i am not wrong it's not 100 percent, as a person reborn in heavenly realm also have such a sign. maybe not right at the top of the head. the surest sign i know so far is the indication of the person seeing Amitabha himself. :smile:

From memory, for a person to be reborn in a heavenly realm (deva), the bardo leaves the body through the forehead.

With seeing Amitabha (or any Buddha or Bodhisattva for that matter), I would suggest one to be very careful, echoing what ksitiputra posted. Personally I would ignore all signs brought in front of my senses and keep nianfo. I would not follow anyone to anywhere.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:38 pm 
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People doing phowa and self-ejecting directly to Pure Land will show a small hole in the top of head too.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:01 am 
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Kaji wrote:
With seeing Amitabha (or any Buddha or Bodhisattva for that matter), I would suggest one to be very careful, echoing what ksitiputra posted. Personally I would ignore all signs brought in front of my senses and keep nianfo. I would not follow anyone to anywhere.


yes, that's during our daily nianfo practice and a norm in meditation and ch'an. we ignore all signs.
though in PL and particularly in deathbed, it's another theory as mentioned in the thread:-
No Auspicious Signs = No affinities with Amitabha?
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=9634
there's such possibility that mara may transform fake buddhas, Bodhisattva, if a person practice not in line with their "Root" Buddha or practice too many buddhas making them confused. but mara cannot transform themselve as Amitabha if it's the person's fixed rooted Buddha(Amitabha) they took refuge from their daily practice. like for example if a person has being reciting Amitabha all the while, and he/she see other buddhas, then, it's fake. but it's very rare if he/she practice wholeheartedly in Amitabha. mara would not have manifested to confuse, as they are not confused in his/her practice in the first place. there is also saying that they cannot transform the Trinities (1) Amitabha Buddha (2) Mahasthamaprapta Bodhisattva (3) Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva all at once.
practically, we have been seeing and practicing deathbed supportive recitation 临终助念 to dying people, and we do encourage the dying to let go of their attachment and if they see the Trinities (1) Amitabha Buddha (2) Mahasthamaprapta Bodhisattva (3) Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva, they can follow them to pureland. Escorting is mentioning in Amitabha Sutra and Contemplation Sutra.
i follow old Master Chin Kung, saying another form of differentiating real and fake Amitabha/Buddha is their light. real Amitabha will have a soothing comfortable light while a fake one will have a glaring uncomfortable glare.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, sinweiy!

I have wondered - if at the time of my passing away, I keep on nianfo'ing with my vow to be reborn to the Western Pure Land in my bardo form and am steadfast in ignoring all signs including the arrival and escort of Amitabha and the two Maha-Bodhisattva, will they have to "drag" me to the Western Pure Land?

Now as funny as my question might sound, it is serious business! How tragic it would be if I let go of the precious chance to migrate to the Pure Land and fall back into samsara again!

In any case, I am hoping that before my time of passing away, my level of nianfo would have reached a high-enough level that I tune into the Pure Land even when well and alive. This might have to do with practising nianfo and Zen at the same time. I might share the blog posts of a person who wrote a lot on this topic, but I would have to translate them from Chinese into English.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Kaji wrote:
Thanks for the reply, sinweiy!

I have wondered - if at the time of my passing away, I keep on nianfo'ing with my vow to be reborn to the Western Pure Land in my bardo form and am steadfast in ignoring all signs including the arrival and escort of Amitabha and the two Maha-Bodhisattva, will they have to "drag" me to the Western Pure Land?

Now as funny as my question might sound, it is serious business! How tragic it would be if I let go of the precious chance to migrate to the Pure Land and fall back into samsara again!

In any case, I am hoping that before my time of passing away, my level of nianfo would have reached a high-enough level that I tune into the Pure Land even when well and alive. This might have to do with practising nianfo and Zen at the same time. I might share the blog posts of a person who wrote a lot on this topic, but I would have to translate them from Chinese into English.


:smile: i was wondering about that too. i recall a recorded story about this man who also reciting until Amitabha or Kuan Yin came with a purple-lotus seat and he thought that purple-lotus-seat was not good enough, so he rejected and they left. They did not force him. So the man continue reciting to another level of concentration, then Amitabha came back again with a golden-lotus-seat. now the man was satisfied and went with Amitabha.

nevertheless, i think there could be some contradiction between the form-based pureland school and the emptiness-based ch'an school for someone who's level is not high enough to combine ch'an and PL.
Maybe we can ask a person who reached enlightenment in ch'an go to what kind of "pureland" when they depart? i may say it's the pureland of mind-ground Buddha Vaircana. it's automatic, nobody to escort.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Interesting story! The wonderful thing about nianfo is that, even without the Pure Land, nianfo is still a sure way to progress to Buddhahood. My basis of this statement is "Maha-Stamaprapta Bodhisattva's Preachment on Being Mindful of the Buddha" 《大勢至菩薩念佛圓通章》.

I see my current practice of upholding the Casket Seal Dharani and aiming to become one with it as the same as nianfo - being mindful of all Buddha, past and present.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Great experiences


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:49 pm 
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I want to ask something that may be sound abit blasphemous,first of all I want to confirm there is no bad karma for doing this right?. ..(t is related to pure land). ..'


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:56 am 
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GarcherLancelot wrote:
I want to ask something that may be sound abit blasphemous,first of all I want to confirm there is no bad karma for doing this right?. ..(t is related to pure land). ..'


I dont see anything wrong with asking questions.

Its mean statements I think people can do without.

Go ahead ask a question.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:03 am 
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GarcherLancelot wrote:
I want to ask something that may be sound abit blasphemous,first of all I want to confirm there is no bad karma for doing this right?. ..(t is related to pure land). ..'


go ahead?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:18 pm 
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I don;t really remember what I am going to ask originally but anyway if this pure land which seems like a shortcut ,why Shakyamuni buddha did not emphasize it and most of the information about this can only be found in Mahayana sutras which are kept hidden from us for a certain period of time which may make the more sceptical people like me doubt whether is it true or not.. .


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Good question indeed.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:11 am 
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GarcherLancelot wrote:
I don;t really remember what I am going to ask originally but anyway if this pure land which seems like a shortcut ,why Shakyamuni buddha did not emphasize it and most of the information about this can only be found in Mahayana sutras which are kept hidden from us for a certain period of time which may make the more sceptical people like me doubt whether is it true or not.. .

The thing is, Shakyamuni Buddha did kind of emphasised it. He starting speaking the sutra by himself, whereas other sutra are always started by some other person or event.

Pure Land practice is really great, but it has a catch, a big one too: it is very difficult to believe. To many, it is too good to be true, so they would doubt the teaching. I think that is why the Buddha taught many other forms of practice, many more difficult to put into practice but easier to believe.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Kaji wrote:
GarcherLancelot wrote:
I don;t really remember what I am going to ask originally but anyway if this pure land which seems like a shortcut ,why Shakyamuni buddha did not emphasize it and most of the information about this can only be found in Mahayana sutras which are kept hidden from us for a certain period of time which may make the more sceptical people like me doubt whether is it true or not.. .

The thing is, Shakyamuni Buddha did kind of emphasised it. He starting speaking the sutra by himself, whereas other sutra are always started by some other person or event.

Pure Land practice is really great, but it has a catch, a big one too: it is very difficult to believe. To many, it is too good to be true, so they would doubt the teaching. I think that is why the Buddha taught many other forms of practice, many more difficult to put into practice but easier to believe.


Yup kinda,it requires faith and I still honestly (no offense) don;t really understand the faith factor in religions,I mean sure if someone makes a logical assumption to believe in a certain religion or sub-division of religion,but relying on faith I don't know I guess I am the type who prefers clear logic to be sure of something,because speaking of faith,a lot of people have faith...but in different gods etc. ,means there is most likely people who are believed the wrong things based on their faith,unless all the major religions are actually one big family or something along those lines.. .Btw in Pure Land Buddhism,they say when one of the practitioner died,sometimes he or she can be visited by fake buddhas instead of the Amitabha and other two bodhisattvas?What will happen to them if they followed the wrong one?.. .


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:40 am 
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GarcherLancelot wrote:

Yup kinda,it requires faith and I still honestly (no offense) don;t really understand the faith factor in religions,I mean sure if someone makes a logical assumption to believe in a certain religion or sub-division of religion,but relying on faith I don't know I guess I am the type who prefers clear logic to be sure of something,because speaking of faith,a lot of people have faith...but in different gods etc. ,means there is most likely people who are believed the wrong things based on their faith,unless all the major religions are actually one big family or something along those lines.. .Btw in Pure Land Buddhism,they say when one of the practitioner died,sometimes he or she can be visited by fake buddhas instead of the Amitabha and other two bodhisattvas?What will happen to them if they followed the wrong one?.. .


already mentioned in my post above..to follow the wrong one mean his/her karma/doubt is heavier/stronger than his/her faith/confidence.

instead of "blind" faith, in Buddhism it's known as saddhā which rather mean a quality of confidence in the mind instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddha

Remarking on practitioners of various capabilities, the Buddha states:
“Good, good Sāriputta! Those who have not known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with discernment, they would have to go by faith in others that the faculty of faith ... the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness ... the faculty of meditative composure ... the faculty of discernment, when developed and cultivated, has the death-free as its ground, the death-free as its destination, the death-free as its final goal.”--Sarakaani Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

/\

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"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung


Last edited by sinweiy on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:55 am 
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for pureland (especially non-or lower educated)(and or guru devoting technique of tibetan buddhism which normally involve young and innocent kid)(most or all good masters start from very young.)(they would not know who to follow. their parent or lama send them to follow a good teacher.) , they do just start with "good" faith. i.e.

"When you buy a loaf of bread, you expect it does not contain poison, that is based on good faith."

Kalama got kalama method. higher educated got higher educated method. lower educated got lower educated method. non educated got non educated method. just different med for different illness. cannot fix the kalama method on the non educated. won't work. to me the lowest and innocent is the highest and fastest, though risky method, straight away rid ignorance/doubt and arrogance. while the clever one think too much wandering thoughts. 聪明反被聪明误. blind by own arrogance.

/\

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"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:21 am 
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sinweiy wrote:
while the clever one think too much wandering thoughts. 聪明反被聪明误. blind by own arrogance.

Or rather, blinded by own cleverness.

Some information on the Kālāma Sūtra:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:06 pm 
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I am not bashing faith ,I am just wondering why is it being used as a reason to justify things? .. . :alien: :alien: :alien: .. .


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:00 pm 
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GarcherLancelot wrote:
I am not bashing faith ,I am just wondering why is it being used as a reason to justify things? .. . :alien: :alien: :alien: .. .

Sorry I'm not quite following... Who or what is using faith as a reason to justify what?

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