YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms! - Dhamma Wheel

Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:46 pm

Opening the Entrance to The Hell Realms

I was considering after watching the news this evening the kind of hell that our Japanese friends are enduring, especially those in the North. The death toll is expected to exceed ten thousand. Compounding that is the potential for a revisiting of radioactive particle and direct radiation induced diseases, especially for children who survived the ravages of their recent multiple earthquakes, and resultant tsunami, only to be dosed with the fallout from the reactor hydrogen explosions and rod storage fires.

The question always arises, Why?
Of course, until the scientific concept of Plate Techtonics was formulated in the field of Geological Sciences nobody had any real idea of what was going on, and folks superstitiously conjured up angry gods, and karmic consequences for individuals and even entire societies. Our search for explanations reflects our darker thoughts, hatreds, and fears. For example, Jews were for years called "Christ Killers" by the Christians as late as the nineteen forties and fifties by my memory, and it wasn't until Vatican II Council that Catholic leaders even acknowledged that Jews could go to heaven. Ironically it turned out that the same Catholic Hierarchy has since created an immense karmic debt for themselves, people thinking that there may be in fact such a thing as group kamma. For the exact same reason some think that The Tibetans were attacked by the military forces of Red China resulting in millions of them being killed. Then there is the not so irrational hatred of the Jews by the Palestinians, by Hesbullah, and by The Muslim Brotherhood.
Just recently a Christian community gathered to shout hateful epithets to family and friends, mourners , when their son and school mate was brought home in a body bag to be given a family funeral at a local church.
Consider also that thousands of innocent Americans died in the 9/11/2001 attack, resulting in tens of thousands of young men, women, innocent adults, not so innocent adults, fighters and innocent bystanders, those wanting only to be of service to their country to die, or be maimed for life psychologically and physically. Such as these endured and are to this day still enduring hellish circumstances...........all because of mental factors which resulted in violent actions, which in turn created a literal hell realm right here on Earth for them and those around them. Mothers and fathers grieve for their lost children and ask, “Why”.
Religious practitioners produce only inadequate and largely inaccurate explanations for the absurdities of sincere believers slaughtering each other and then ask their concept of a god "Why?" Answering only that “It is god’s will!”, or “God works in mysterious ways!”.....when the answer is so simple, as Buddha put it: "Violence leads only to more violence."

I have found in my almost sixty-seven years on this planet that there are many doors to such hell realms, and none of these doors are locked. All it takes to for each one of us to open any of these doors is an attachment to the delusion of self, a false belief, an irrational idea that we are somehow different from one another. Such delusions sometimes begin with an idea that our thoughts, views, and perspectives are somehow superior to those of others. We see that on online opinion forums and blogs constantly, when our individual false-egos raise their ugly heads with some sense that a personal violation of our delusional selves has taken place. So a perceived insult results in a retort. A retort is exchanged for a self-righteous volley of insults and rude comments, which then give rise to us harboring ill feelings towards those perceived to have somehow insulted, demeaned or, in some other way harmed our delusional selves.

Buddha taught us, "Violence leads only to more violence." It is true of violence in the play yard. It is true of violence on the battlefield. It is true of rude abuse in public forums. It is true on the subway. It is true during personal exchanges on online forums. In this way we easily open a door and create our own current and future hell realms.

To understand, verify and validate this concept, as we were advised to do in Buddhas Charter of Free Inquire, The Kalama Sutta, all we have to do is to look at how our own personal hells were created by us, and we will come to grips with the reason “Why?” hell realms arise around and within us. It is because such hell realms are of our own personal creation through our own personal acts of violence.

Buddha explained the solution in The Angulimala Sutta to a serial killer: "Stop!" ...and, "The only way to stop is to stop." “It is not enough to just want to stop.” “It is not enough just to plan to stop.” “The only way to stop is to stop.” Which requires that we ask ourselves a question: "Have we stopped?" If not, then we must examine and reflect thus, “Do we want to stop?” If not, perhaps we enjoy being in hells and being responsible for creating little hell realms wherever we go. Perhaps we are addicted to the feelings and the power that comes along with creating hells for ourselves. If so, the consequences of our actions are very easily predicted, and we may well deserve exactly what we get as a result.

As if it is not bad enough that we damage ourselves with our destructive violent intentional actions or inactions, the problem is as dear friends rightly pointed out, there are innocents around us who always suffer collateral damage, damages which almost always leave life-time scars and fill them with anxiety at first, fear, terrors, and eventually hatreds, which in turn results in resolve; that is resolve to even the score; what we in the Italian community call "La Vendeta!".

There is a Biblical quotation which I first heard spoken by a Russian safety engineer, a coworker, where I was employed in Rochester, New York: "Death and destruction to the fourth generation!" I don't remember the exact Biblical chapter and verse, but the idea was that god understood that if we hope to solve our problems with violence, we need to kill up to the fourth generation of those with whom we are engaged in war, otherwise there will be retribution. "Violence leads only to more violence."

Hence, Buddha's advisory to stop.
The United States is engaged now in three wars. It is true that these were not of our own choosing. Those who chose to act against The U.S.A. with violence are discovering the consequences of attempting to solve their issues with violence perpetrated against the most powerful military force “ever”, and the result is children coming home in body bags, and children along with their entire families being killed in their own home villages, simply because of an attempt to end violence with violence.
Discussing this a good friend wrote to me: “Write your congressman.”…which I did.

But even more important than writing our government officials, it seems to me that if we really want to destroy our personal hells, we have to stop being violent ourselves. And, we are the only ones who can do that.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Parth
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:53 pm

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Parth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:38 pm

Finally it is ' Karma' ! There possibly could be a group Karma since, there were and are armies which plunder and kill in group.

Metta

Parth.

User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:47 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby cooran » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:49 pm

Hello all,

These may be of interest:

Kamma and Natural Disasters by Ven. Dhammika
http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2008/05/k ... ers-i.html

Kamma is not the only law on how the world works.
There are five (5) Universal Order that governed the world.
1. Utu Niyama, physical inorganic order, which govern the physical and chemical phenomena such as the cause of winds and rains, the nature of heat, etc.
2. Bija Niyama, physical organic order, which govern the biological and genetic aspect such as germs, seeds, cells and etc.
3. Kamma Niyama, order of action and its result.
4. Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, which governs the natural phenomena such as gravity, the phenomena of earthquake etc.
5. Citta Niyama, order of mind, which governs the processes of consciousness and the power of mind in the context of psychic power.
~Abhidhammavatara~
http://www.mahindarama.com/corresponden ... ate2-1.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:21 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Bodhisurfer
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: Cornwall, England

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Bodhisurfer » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:04 pm

Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya

User avatar
altar
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:24 pm
Location: Great Barrington, MA

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby altar » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:38 pm

me too, i liked it. though i wouldn't write off asking why as ubiquitously bad.

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:26 pm

altar & Bodhisurfer,

Thanks for the feedback.

Right, but absolute knowledge of such so-called "facts" are not a matter of choice for the average Joe or Jill like you and I, nor the kids that are ordered off to war by their leaders.

I can see what Morlock is getting at from his perspective, but we are speaking for him and we really shouldn't.

Debate about "weapons of mass destruction" not found in Iraq will more than likely surpass the theories regarding The Kennedy Assassination. This has been chalked up to foggy intelligence from one faction, and explained as out and out lies by opposing factions. Ironically what Obama's people are calling "weapons of mass destruction" now are not even close to having the destructive power of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that Saddaam Hussein was missing from his UN inspectors' weapons and munitions mass balance reports. But, I can understand and respect morlock's perspective, which seems to be diametrically opposed to mine. I long ago became bored of such arguments. Perhaps now that Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Libya and Egypt have a chance at the process of democratizing we will learn more regarding the truth of it all. If not, we will have to wait for Syria to follow suit as it was named as the repository of WMDs by Brittish and U.S. Intelligence agencies, who advised their leadership.

In any event, such is the nature of perspectives and views. That is why Buddha advised never to become attached to them, nor to waste any time in debating them. Attachment causes nothing but dukkha. So, I will stop, and let mine go and get back to the work of putting out my personal fires of delusion and attachment.

Thanks again for your input.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:18 am

Greetings Ron,

A related sutta, that may be of interest to yourself and others.

MN 18: Madhupindika Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In many regards it's a sutta about how we create our own hells, through the way we respond to the raw input of the senses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:15 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

alan
Posts: 2812
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby alan » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:38 am

Hi Ron.
So, what is your point?

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:41 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Bluishpurple
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:25 pm
Location: England

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Bluishpurple » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:31 am

Great OP Ron, I have to say I share a lot of the views that you do. If it's okay with you I'll share this with some people I feel would be interested

Bluishpurple
:namaste:

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:46 am

Greetings Ron,

If there's one thing that doesn't sit quite right with me about the posts you've made, it's that the consequences of kamma (i.e. vipaka) are mental, and are experienced because of becoming (bhava).

Your post contains a great deal of what one might call "common sense" and a good understanding of worldly causality and how "one thing leads to another" but I think it is a mistake to conflate that and make connections between those observations and kamma and dependent origination, in the way you have.

As I understand them, kamma and dependent origination are deep teachings based on how one formulates one's loka through volitional activity rooted in ignorance, rather than establishing a two-way relationship between the (little s) self and the so-called "world around us".

See also Cooran's links above if you've not already done so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:45 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:28 pm

Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby pilgrim » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:41 pm

Why?
Because this is Samsara......why not?

User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Viscid » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:07 pm

Ron likes to lecture to reinforce his delusion of being a 'Wise Elder.'
:jumping:
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:07 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Opening the Doors to The Hell Realms!

Postby Viscid » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:38 pm

"What holds attention determines action." - William James


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 46 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine