masters of the tradition

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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
humanpreta wrote:
Is the nirmanakaya buddhafield in one of samsara's realm? i.e.: formless.



No, it is not a formless realm and no it is not part of samsara.

M


nirmanakaya buddhafield = dhamadhatu. samsara = dharmadhtu. samsara = nirvana. Terms are different but not the basis and contents.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby humanpreta » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
humanpreta wrote:
Is the nirmanakaya buddhafield in one of samsara's realm? i.e.: formless.



No, it is not a formless realm and no it is not part of samsara.

M


Where the hell is it then lol? It's a place of total pre-total liberation?

Also, would you please take a peek at my question regarding DI the 3 realms...
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby humanpreta » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:42 am

Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
humanpreta wrote:
Is the nirmanakaya buddhafield in one of samsara's realm? i.e.: formless.



No, it is not a formless realm and no it is not part of samsara.

M


nirmanakaya buddhafield = dhamadhatu. samsara = dharmadhtu. samsara = nirvana. Terms are different but not the basis and contents.


You're totally glossing over critical differences. These terms are not equivalent. Study up.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:13 am

humanpreta wrote:You're totally glossing over critical differences. These terms are not equivalent. Study up.


I already stated this is referring to the equivalent of the contents and basis, not the differences of terms. If one rely on words instead of meaning in the dharma, there will be more speculation based on words and understand will not be reach.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby humanpreta » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:29 pm

Jyoti wrote:
humanpreta wrote:You're totally glossing over critical differences. These terms are not equivalent. Study up.


I already stated this is referring to the equivalent of the contents and basis, not the differences of terms. If one rely on words instead of meaning in the dharma, there will be more speculation based on words and understand will not be reach.


Restating something doesn't make it true. We are communicating with words, so I'm relying on words. If you're going to use words, use them precisely. If I wanted rainbow soup, I'd go to someone much more nuanced in glossing: Kenny W

BTW, do you look anything like your pic? If so, hottttttttttt.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:01 am

humanpreta wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
humanpreta wrote:You're totally glossing over critical differences. These terms are not equivalent. Study up.


I already stated this is referring to the equivalent of the contents and basis, not the differences of terms. If one rely on words instead of meaning in the dharma, there will be more speculation based on words and understand will not be reach.


Restating something doesn't make it true. We are communicating with words, so I'm relying on words. If you're going to use words, use them precisely. If I wanted rainbow soup, I'd go to someone much more nuanced in glossing: Kenny W

BTW, do you look anything like your pic? If so, hottttttttttt.


:focus:
“You have some good connection with the Dzogchen Teaching - you have arrived to the Dzogchen Teaching, you have met a Dzogchen Master; you must understand that it means you are very fortunate.” ChNNR
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 pm

I reall am starting to get things now,I know this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I have started a journal to go along with my meditationns,reflections etc
im glad i stuck with the terminology it really opened my eyes to the reality or better yet the COMPLETION,PERFECTION of things.
much more to do, but i must stay determined.
can't wait until ChNN Rinpoche gives the next Direct Intoduction.

thanks Dharma Wheel

:namaste:
“You have some good connection with the Dzogchen Teaching - you have arrived to the Dzogchen Teaching, you have met a Dzogchen Master; you must understand that it means you are very fortunate.” ChNNR
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Sönam » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:55 am

RikudouSennin wrote:can't wait until ChNN Rinpoche gives the next Direct Intoduction.

thanks Dharma Wheel

:namaste:


Do not expect too much ... let yourself be surprized.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:14 pm

Sönam wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:can't wait until ChNN Rinpoche gives the next Direct Intoduction.

thanks Dharma Wheel

:namaste:


Do not expect too much ... let yourself be surprized.

Sönam


:good: I know what you mean.
i guess im all excited because the historical value of the teachings.
I feel like im going to be apart of this realized traditio of masters.
Idk i view it like the sage/mahasiddhas of old, i feel like im finally connectiong
“You have some good connection with the Dzogchen Teaching - you have arrived to the Dzogchen Teaching, you have met a Dzogchen Master; you must understand that it means you are very fortunate.” ChNNR
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Yudron » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Malcolm wrote: So whats the chance of becoming fully awakened in this lifetime after being introduced o your real nature?


You just need to connect with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and not look back. He is the only teacher alive today that I know of who had two masters achieve rainbow body in this life.


I once heard that Yangthang Tulku has personally witnessed 9 cases of rainbow body -- but I wasn't present at the teaching where he said it. It is good to catch this old master while we still can.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Yudron » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:22 pm

I would just like to note that the term "direct introduction" is the translation favored by the Dzogchen Community of ngo sprod ངོ་སྤྲོད- which can also be translated as pointing out instructions, or pointing out directly, etc. All dzogchen masters give ngo sprod, some formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:30 pm

Yudron wrote:I would just like to note that the term "direct introduction" is the translation favored by the Dzogchen Community of ngo sprod ངོ་སྤྲོད- which can also be translated as pointing out instructions, or pointing out directly, etc. All dzogchen masters give ngo sprod, some formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road.



:namaste:

... forgive the grammar, I'm nt goin for that anyway... :tongue:
I don't want to sound "sarcastic" but you can get "direct introduction" and never know you had it, or was even offered it from some of those teachers in your rather interesting categories, not to disrespect any of those teachers, as they are all probably some great ones that fit into the "Yudron Classes of Introduction" ( :twothumbsup: ): "formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road" ... now if those aren't your classes, please let me know...
so... until you have that experience with a teacher that actually lets you know what they are doing, indeed, that they are giving you direct introduction, and then once you "get it" and know where you got it, then you might look back and recall it was given by another master, or more than one master to you, maybe YEARS ago and you didn't know what they were doin..."formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road"...so if you didn't "get it" then this is something you should know experientially, and if you "got it" then you should be sure how, when, and who the teacher was you got into your natural state with and "knew it" experientially. Also, if you have not been in the same state as the teacher through his/her "direct introduction" then you won't be able to move to step two, which is to be certain of it, without doubt... just sayin...

Example: He said "Banana Emanation" while holding up a banana and pointing directly to the Banana in 1988, and lookin me squarely in the eyes, and I didn't know what he was talkin about at the time...(flashback! ah...!!!)

lol :pig:
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Yudron » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:46 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
Yudron wrote:I would just like to note that the term "direct introduction" is the translation favored by the Dzogchen Community of ngo sprod ངོ་སྤྲོད- which can also be translated as pointing out instructions, or pointing out directly, etc. All dzogchen masters give ngo sprod, some formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road.



:namaste:

... forgive the grammar, I'm nt goin for that anyway... :tongue:
I don't want to sound "sarcastic" but you can get "direct introduction" and never know you had it, or was even offered it from some of those teachers in your rather interesting categories, not to disrespect any of those teachers, as they are all probably some great ones that fit into the "Yudron Classes of Introduction" ( :twothumbsup: ): "formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road" ... now if those aren't your classes, please let me know...
so... until you have that experience with a teacher that actually lets you know what they are doing, indeed, that they are giving you direct introduction, and then once you "get it" and know where you got it, then you might look back and recall it was given by another master, or more than one master to you, maybe YEARS ago and you didn't know what they were doin..."formally, some informally, some traditionally, some non-traditionally, some immediately, some on down the road"...so if you didn't "get it" then this is something you should know experientially, and if you "got it" then you should be sure how, when, and who the teacher was you got into your natural state with and "knew it" experientially. Also, if you have not been in the same state as the teacher through his/her "direct introduction" then you won't be able to move to step two, which is to be certain of it, without doubt... just sayin...

Example: He said "Banana Emanation" while holding up a banana and pointing directly to the Banana in 1988, and lookin me squarely in the eyes, and I didn't know what he was talkin about at the time...(flashback! ah...!!!)

lol :pig:


I don't get what you are saying, but I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way.

I'm just clarifying that when you are working with English translations of the technical terminology of Dzogchen, you risk having some people thinking they need to get (something called) direct introduction, when they have already received (something called) pointing out instructions, when both terms refer to the same thing. You make it sound like I am making some arrogant categories of kinds of ngo trö, and I apologize if that is how I sounded in my post. One can read the lives of the great masters of Dzogchen, such as Nyoshul Lhuntog Tenpa'i Nyima, and so on, and see that ngo trö is given in all kinds of ways. I'm not qualified to talk about getting it versus not getting it and all that, because I am just an ordinary person.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby CrawfordHollow » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:34 am

I don't really get what T.Chokyi is trying to say either. Not only is his post insulting, it also seems to contradicts what ChNN says himself about direct introduction: that there are many ways that a teacher can transmit this, not only in formal pointing out sessions. I believe that not only ChNN but many other dzogchen teachers have said that it is possible for realized masters to always be giving direct introduction. Perhaps I am wrong, but it also seems that it is not the case that the student must be in the same state as the guru during this introduction. If the student does not immediately recognize their nature, then they can use any method appropriate after the initial pointing out to discover it. So they most certaintly can move on to step two if they didn't happen to be in the same state as the master during the initial introduction. Again, maybe I am mistaken, but either way Yudron is a very experienced and wise practitioner, much more than myself, so maybe you could show her a little respect.

Just sayin...
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Yudron » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:48 am

I consider myself a beginner.

There is no uniformity in the way that Dzogchen terminology is translated, so we each become familiar with the way our teachers' translators conventions. I am trying to learn the vocabulary in Tibetan, and I am of the opinion that we all should. All translators would say it's ideal to start to get the meaning directly from the Tibetan, so that distortion does not creep in based on their translations.

In relation to discussions on DW, we can't even meaningfully talk to each other across sanghas if we use exclusively the English terminology prevalent in our group.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:15 am

I cant wait until the retreat begins, it will be my first.
Cant deny i want to recognize the true nature immediately but i dont want to dewll on it because i just may.
but at least if i dont, i know i can keep working on it becasue Rinpoche bllessed me with DI or pointing out etc.
this is exciting.
im not trying to reach some nirvikalpa state but recognize the real nature of things as they are.
“You have some good connection with the Dzogchen Teaching - you have arrived to the Dzogchen Teaching, you have met a Dzogchen Master; you must understand that it means you are very fortunate.” ChNNR
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:14 am

I don't get what you are saying, but I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way.


Not at all.

I'm just clarifying that when you are working with English translations of the technical terminology of Dzogchen, you risk having some people thinking they need to get (something called) direct introduction, when they have already received (something called) pointing out instructions, when both terms refer to the same thing. You make it sound like I am making some arrogant categories of kinds of ngo trö, and I apologize if that is how I sounded in my post.


I thought your post was good, and I found a kind of humor in it... so I wasn't saying it was arrogant at all...so I thought you might "play" with what I said... interesting interpretation though... nuff said, no problem on my part though, and certainly no offense meant... back to the drawing board! :thinking:
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:56 am

Jyoti wrote:
nirmanakaya buddhafield = dhamadhatu. samsara = dharmadhtu. samsara = nirvana. Terms are different but not the basis and contents.

What you have quoted here are not things. They are conceptual elaborations. What you need to know is that dharmadhatu does not act as a cause. Instead of looking at books and all their words, look at your experiences.
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby username » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:56 pm

I don't think T.Chokyi insulted anyone. Secondly I also don't think she/he disagreed with anyone here. In fact the opposite. Thirdly I don't think she/he is opposing what ChNN said but is agreeing again. T.Chokyi says there are numerous types of Direct Introduction and many appear otherwise until one realizes later how the master was giving it by various means. This is exactly what ChNN has often said about his own experience with his root guru, other Masters & now himself. Everyone has their karmic vision when reading the post but after reading that post a few times it's obvious to me just as it was on first reading.

There can be infinite suggested words as translations by experienced translators or those starting Tibetan as absolute beginners but for mahamudra use many prefer "Pointing Out" as convention. To avoid numerous suggestions possible & confusion, as a convention Dzogchen followers of ChNN like many other translators & texts use the terms "Direct Introduction" like himself.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:48 pm

any audio or video teaching resoures on the vajra guru mantra
“You have some good connection with the Dzogchen Teaching - you have arrived to the Dzogchen Teaching, you have met a Dzogchen Master; you must understand that it means you are very fortunate.” ChNNR
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