Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:49 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:43 pm
Posts: 65
Location: India
Whatever that substance is.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Music wrote:
Whatever that substance is.


The universe and everything it are made of six elements:

Earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
The universe is a result of the collective karma of all beings.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Huseng wrote:
The universe is a result of the collective karma of all beings.



That is what makes it [collective karma], but that is not what it is made of i.e. like a potter and clay.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Taiwan
Music wrote:
Whatever that substance is.


Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.

It can only form if you have an idea about this universe.

But, if you can drop off of this idea of universe, you won't see any of them.

If you can drop off the idea of water when you are standing in front of waterfall, there is no water there.

If you say that is water element, that is only you who say so.
If your friend say that is also water element, that is also only your friend who say so.

Hungry ghost doesn't see water element, they see blood.
Fish doesn't see water element, they see house.
God doesn't see water element, they see nectar.

If you can drop off all those idea in front of waterfall, you won't see any water there, any substance there.

These 5 elements and consciousness are just trap of ignorance.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Taiwan
DarwidHalim wrote:
There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.

It can only form if you have an idea about this universe.

But, if you can drop off of this idea of universe, you won't see any of them.

If you can drop off the idea of water when you are standing in front of waterfall, there is no water there.

If you say that is water element, that is only you who say so.
If your friend say that is also water element, that is also only your friend who say so.

Hungry ghost doesn't see water element, they see blood.
Fish doesn't see water element, they see house.
God doesn't see water element, they see nectar.



To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism. Whatever one experiences irrespective of conceptual content is not outside of the subject and object of perception, this mechanism of subject and object of perception is the mechanism of consciousness.

As for blood and nectar, their form of manifestation is of water, thus they belong to the water element. The reason hungry ghost see water blood and gods see water as nectar is due to the principle of collective karma and their result, where beings with their storehouse consciousness being perfumed with similar seeds will be born in similar realm, sharing similar vision.

Quote:
If you can drop off all those idea in front of waterfall, you won't see any water there, any substance there.

These 5 elements and consciousness are just trap of ignorance.


You will still hear the sound of waterfall, and if your body touches the water, it will feel cold and the contact sensation of the water molecules. These sensory perceptions are not make up of idea, since without actively thinking about the idea, one also will not be able to avoid these sensory perceptions.

Ignorance here specially means one has no idea how to classify phenomena that appear in the form of water element or consciousness element. Or is confusing idea as similar to perceptions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
Jyoti wrote:
To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism.


Okay, then how about this:
Jyoti wrote:
Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness


To assert consciousness itself, doesn't it lead to another end - existence?

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:47 am
Posts: 61
The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness. Even the elements like water, fire, earth, wind, consciousness and space emerge from it. In Taoist cosmology also, first there was Wuji (Void), then it split into Yin and Yang, and finally came the five elements.

Emptiness is still not a substance though. But universe is still made up from it.

_________________
Namo Amitabha Buddha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
Tiger wrote:
The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness.


So, is emptiness a substance?

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:47 am
Posts: 61
DarwidHalim wrote:
Tiger wrote:
The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness.


So, is emptiness a substance?


Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it. But then, is the universe real?

_________________
Namo Amitabha Buddha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:33 am
Posts: 85
Location: Northern Ireland
Tiger wrote:
Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it. But then, is the universe real?


Define "real" please. It can have so many meanings and imho is highly subjective.

_________________
Blessed Be,

Bunny.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
Tiger wrote:
Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it.


This is a self-contradiction statement.

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:47 am
Posts: 61
DarwidHalim wrote:
Tiger wrote:
Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it.


This is a self-contradiction statement.


Question: I do not take the four [dharmas] as constituting earth. It is simply because of the four dharmas that the dharma of earth is produced. This "earth" dwells among these four dharmas.

Response: If it was the case that earth was produced from four dharmas, then earth would be different from the four dharmas in the same way that when a father and mother give birth to a son, the son is then different from the father and mother. If it was the case that earth was different from these four dharmas, then in the same manner as the eye perceives forms, the nose is aware of smells, the tongue is aware of tastes, and the body is aware of touchables, there should additionally exist yet another different sense faculty and a yet another different associated consciousness which perceive [the existence of earth]. If there is no additional different sense faculty and [associated] consciousness which perceive [the existence of earth], then there would be no earth [produced in the way you posit].

http://www.purifymind.com/Wisdom3.htm

I think the same reasoning applies to your question. Essentially no element(s) can be said to create a substance because of it.

_________________
Namo Amitabha Buddha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Taiwan
DarwidHalim wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism.


Okay, then how about this:
Jyoti wrote:
Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness


To assert consciousness itself, doesn't it lead to another end - existence?


In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.

Jyoti


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
Jyoti wrote:
In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.


Since you also assert consciousness doesn't possess substance, why you still say consciousness exists?

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Taiwan
DarwidHalim wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.


Since you also assert consciousness doesn't possess substance, why you still say consciousness exists?


The storehouse consciousness itself is the body of consciousness, so its existence cannot negated, also it is the basis from which the process of dependent-origination can persist. The storehouse consciousness itself is without an external support or basis, because of this, it is the support and the basis of everything related to the individual. Even the seeds of the storehouse consciousness, they are not newly created but are innate part of the storehouse consciousness, these seeds are stored as potential (positive or negative) of the individual, and take effects after being perfumed through the agent (means) of the 7 consciousnesses. Since the seeds are innate, they cannot be render as conditional, false or non-existent.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Jyoti wrote:
Music wrote:
Whatever that substance is.


Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness.


Conventionally speaking, even in Yogacara, the universe is made of five elements plus consciousness, the so called sadadhātu.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
DarwidHalim wrote:
There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.




Conventionally speaking, even in Madhyamaka, the universe is made of five elements plus consciousness, the so called sadadhātu.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 pm
Posts: 418
Jyoti wrote:
The storehouse consciousness itself is the body of consciousness, so its existence cannot negated, also it is the basis from which the process of dependent-origination can persist. ...... . Since the seeds are innate, they cannot be render as conditional, false or non-existent.


Where is that storehouse?

_________________
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: smcj and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group